oh no..not more ki

[markusan]

Very mysterious indeed

[BJJShotoshe]

Thanks for the correction JEM! I respect that!

[Thuggish]

just remember- anything that goes against newtonian physics (excluding quantum/particle physics) is not true. just like magic.

[wing chun kuen man]

Ki or chi does exist. It takes a long time (many years) for it to manifest and of course that is if you are doing the right kind of training. The basis for internal kung fu styles is the development of chi. The external styles also use chi.....actually if you practice kung fu without any chi/ki/energy training than you are not doing kung fu.

 

One developes chi through chi kung exercises and meditation. Usually the first sensations of chi energy is a tingling sensation on ones skin. This is my level of chi development. The next level is to feel this sensations in ones muscles and the final level is when the chi flows through the bones. When a martial artist has strong chi he is able to deliver deadly blows without the external hard power associated with lethal blows. Have you ever wondered why a lot of the times when kung fu exponents demonstrate forms their punches and kickes do not look as powerful as karate or kick boxing strikes. Well this is because the concept behind them is intenal power. You only "see" their power when you are hit by them, and believe me I have been hit by kung fu punches before, they look soft until they hit you and it really does hurt inside.

 

These type of blows penetrate deep into your opponent´s body and can cause damage to lungs, heart , vertebrae etc.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[markusan]

I am still skeptical. I have been meditating for many years. One of the first things I noticed was that when I learnt to quieten my mind I noticed things that were happening in my body more. I started to feel my pulse and my heartbeat without touching a pulse point. These days I can feel a pulse in most parts of my body at most times if I am quiet. The same goes for the tingling sensation. If you sit still long enough you can feel the energy in your body/ nerves etc. At times you can feel the pressure of loud noises in your skin. Nothing mysterious about that. It's like if you spend a long time in the bush in silence your hearing and sense of smell become much more sensitive. The noises aren't any louder and the smells aren't any stronger. And if one punch hurts you more than another it must be a harder punch. How can it be any other way? What else could it be about that punch that does more damage? If there is some other quality/force why does it need a punch to transmit it, simple contact should do the trick. I would venture to say that attributing the effectiveness of a kung fu strike to some mystical single "energy" is devaluing the training and technique of the practitioner.

[wing chun kuen man]

markusan,

 

At higher levels of kung fu training simple contact is all it takes to cause damage. As far as the chi training goes, there are many ways to get the chi to flow. Some have martial applications and some for example that of yoga do not. It is very difficult to explain it is something that must be experienced. I am heading that way. I already feel the difference in my punching power. The damage I can cause is not solely based on impact alone. However, I have a long, long way to go, because we are really talking about long term training and perhaps that is why this concept is so misunderstood and mistrusted in our modern "fast food" society.

 

Many kung fu masters will tell you that if you train kung fu without the chi kung training that goes with it, then you have missed the point. For many masters the chi is just a natural force rather than a "secret" and "mysterious" energy. These exotic descriptions may have more to do with us westerners poking fun at concepts that we don´t understand then any REAL chinese masters´ describing their arts.

 

Yes it is a controversial area but for many long term practitioners the chi energy is real and has real combat applications, or else this kind of training would not have been included in most if not all kung fu systems for hundreds if not thousands of years.

 

For those who have not experienced the concepts of chi power, this is a fascinating area to investigate , with a lot of patience of course.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[JerryLove]

Ki or chi does exist. It takes a long time (many years) for it to manifest and of course that is if you are doing the right kind of training.

Actually no, it does not. One of my instructor does a yearly workshop... you can develop the ability to feel and work with it (and do non-contact healing with it) in a weekend.

One developes chi through chi kung exercises and meditation. Usually the first sensations of chi energy is a tingling sensation on ones skin. This is my level of chi development. The next level is to feel this sensations in ones muscles and the final level is when the chi flows through the bones.

Again, I can teach a meditation (any of the various marrow-washing meditations) that does that in usually a matter of minutes.

[Luckykboxer]

I find it humorous that peopel who claim the mystical powers of Ki or Chi always say they saw it, but never have something to show the rest of us.

 

I have heard that for years..

 

I think more then likely what they have seen is either

 

a. totally manufactured and a lie on thier part for attention.

 

b. a slight of hands by the person doing it to get attention.

 

c. something that is physically possible with lots of training that just impresses someone so much they think its mystical and add more too it.

 

remember there are people who train adn have tuned things so well they can do amazing htings and make it appear effortless.

 

there is a professional Gambler who has 2 PhDs who can throw playing cards upwards or 20 feet, he can throw them at a banana and cut the banana in half.

 

this isnt mystical its lots of training and practice and science involved

 

I can break bats with my shin... i dont glow adn then break it, I broke alot of smaller objects and did alot of conditioning on my legs before i even attempted it. Same with bricks, boards etc.

 

If there was some mysterious power that people could develop over time i guarantee we would have all heard about it by now and seen it.

 

Sure peopel can focus and learn to use their body in a specific way, and they can condition their body to do certain things, I believe that Ki or Chi relates more to the combination of these things to develop the intense focus of tying all of this together, then it does some mystical power to move objects or fly or any other thing that is not scientifically possible.

[Drunken Monkey]

....and there we have the difference between someone who knows what he is talking about and someone who does not....

 

you know, you are probably the first western guy (and for that i mean 'non-chinese' i have heard using a term like marrow-washing and i had no idea that those excercises were taught (assuming we are talking about the same thing here....)

 

kung fu without chi=not kung fu is utter cack (although if you exchange the word with energy it is more 'true').

 

do not confuse chi (breath) with chi (energy).

 

in most cases, when a chinese martial art talks of chi, they are talking about your breathing (or not breathing...) and your state of mind (calm, relaxed, alert, etc etc) which results in better use of energy (although it is not the same as the chi as seen in chi/kung (or is it?)...

 

whilst these things also feature when talking about chi-kung and chi (energy) they are not the same thing.

 

then there's chi (energy) although more commonly this is refered to using the word 'lik' meaning 'strength/power/force' (again, not directly translatable)

 

i really can't explain what i mean using english.....

 

the terms just do not translate as clearly as you think and the differences are slight but important.

[wing chun kuen man]

First of all I am not calling chi mysterious, mystical or magical, you guys are. Now, I do agree that with the right kind of exercises you can get some tingling sensations in a short time but to do non contact healing with chi after a weekend course sounds much more like magic to me or maybe it is a Mcmagic dojo seminar that you are talking about....LOL. Do you also get a black belt if you pay in advance? I have had bad headache all day today so why don´t you remotely cure me, that is if Brazil is within your range of non contact abilities or do you need to wear a special antenna hat that everyone gets for free when they participate in the seminar. Gaining the ability to do bonemarrow washing exercises within minutes is incredible and can have infinite possibilities in the laundry house, imagine how fast one can wash ones underwear.

 

SEE how EASY it is to criticize and poke fun and be a smart *... some of the claims you have made could be taken as an insult to a classical/traditional martial artist´s intelligence-however I will keep an open mind.

 

Many traditional masters claim the ability to cure ailments without making contact and sometimes through long distance. I personally have not experienced or seen the long range type of healing - but I am not about to call it mambo jambo either. Throughout my life I have learnt,sometimes through my martial arts training and sometimes in the "outside" world that many things that I thought were impossible were not so impossible and quite a few times had to eat my own words.

 

luckyboxer, what you are describing are abilities gained through external training methods which can also manifest themselves through internal exercises. Don´t discount one because you personally use the other. This is for all of you, if you have no knowledge or a very limited knowledge of something don´t automatically discount it. I am not saying that you should believe it either but keep an open mind....it is more logical in the long run.

 

My reference for what I say is my own training and sifu. I these concepts are alien to you then fare enough. Learning bone marrow washing exercises in minutes is an alien (if not extremely humorous - but still trying extremely hard to keep an open mind) concept to me. It just proves that not everyone knows everything all of the time and in this forum we may at least learn about the various ways and concepts that exist without necessarily believing in them and without giving out snobbish vibes either.

 

By the way Jerry Love, could it be that what you meant was that you can teach the bone marrow washing meditations within minutes but for them to have an actual effect will still take many months if not years of practice (or repetitions)?

 

Drunken Monkey, I know that chi sometimes has a differente meaning for different people. Here in Rio if you try to explain the chi concept and the breathing and exhalation etc. to an average BJJ practioner he will think that you are talking about blowing your nose. I talked about the meaning it has for me and my school which as you know is a very traditional branch of mainland china wing chun. If you don´t agree with it don´t imply that I don´t know what I am talking about, because first of all I do and second so does my sifu as well as his master. Again, I am not saying that don´t disagree, that is your right . Everyone has opinions based on their own knowledge and reality and a lot of the time it works for them. That is fare.

 

I know this is one of the subjects that we can argue about for the rest of eternity. So lets just stay with our opinions and hopefully with an open mind and who knows the future may hold the answers for all of us. I have already discussed various aspects of chi before in this forum and I don´t want to go through it again so if you don´t believe what I say then don´t, as I said before it is your right.

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man