Crossover from point karate to knockdown

[White Warlock]

I'm not in the mood to get into this little contest of wills, so i'll just focus on the topic at hand.

 

I experienced a whole flue of various competition styles, ranging from no-contact to no-holds. Point contact, as practiced by most systems, helps to build technique, but there is a significant difference as to 'what' you have to deal with in full-contact. The transition from point to full is 'smooth' for some, but 'hard' for most others.

 

As to whether you need to change the way you spar, of course. The rules are different and you need to adjust to that above anything else. The rest will come in time, although i do recommend mid-level sparring with a skilled full contact competitor before walking into the ring. Let him/her find your weaknesses, before they get exploited.

[Dijita]

i do recommend mid-level sparring with a skilled full contact competitor before walking into the ring. Let him/her find your weaknesses, before they get exploited.

 

I like that advice.

[Killer Miller]

Here's the problem I personally have with this entire thread. Sure full contact/kick boxing has a different set of rules. The implication though, in this thread and most others, are that Karate-ka do not train hard enough to last in a kickboxing ring, can't punch their way from a paper bag, we have to train your way (or the kick boxing way that is), etc. This appears a little arogant to me from the kick-boxers perspective from very few persons that have achieved high levels of karate (from a traditional sense of karate that is).

 

Lets look at this from another perspective. Do you feel that Oishi, Tanaka, Shirai, to name a few, would have a problem in a street fight, or in a kickboxing match? I seriously doubt it... Oishi and Tanaka are both multi International champions. Why is this? Because they have achieved high level Karate. Would I expect a low level Karate-ka to do well in a street fight or in a kickboxing match? Probably not, but they would probably develop better and faster than most.

 

So the issue is this.

 

1. Should a lower level Karate-ka change their structure to another style or method to fit into kickboxing - because they haven't fully developed as a Karate-ka yet? Or

 

2. Should they expand their application as a Karate-ka, for development purposes, by maintaining their Karate structure while participating in kick-boxing?

 

Yes, two different worlds in terms of rules, and "prefered" use of technique. But to imply that an experienced, fully developed, karate-ka can't cut the mustard in a kickboxing arena, or in the street for that matter, by using karate technique and structure is the most rediculous statement I've heard... These statements are commonly made by persons that have, for a short time, participated in karate, never fully developed in karate, switched over to kickboxing and act as an expert in karate stating that karate doesn't make it in the world of "full contact."

 

I would love to see comments here from "experienced" traditional karate-ka on this subject. I suspect we won't is my guess. Not comments that "I trained JKA" or "I trained traditional karate" from people to won't specify what level they actually participated in - or that they never achieved a high level for comparison.

 

I'm not trying to say that there's not differences between the two venues in terms of rules. But the implication in most of these threads is that we (JKA or traditional karate) don't train hard enough, have enough speed and stamina, or the proper technique to cut it in a kickboxing match. A lower level karate-ka, I might agree with you because they haven't developed in their own art yet. As a higher level karate-ka, I totally dissagree with most comments.

 

So my basis of my original comments to the original karate-ka asking the question, was to stress to him/her that there is no need to change the way of training just to participate in a full contact art. They may have to train harder to be skilled enough to cut the mustard in full contact due to their lack of technique and experience in the traditional art, but this shouldn't be a negative reflection on the actual traditional art - just a reflection on the individual's current development and achievements...

 

I'm probably rambling on at this point, but continued comments degrading traditional Karate as "useless" or "worthless" or "ineffective" in the world of full contact is getting a little tiring and a sore spot. I spent many years as a demo team promoting traditional karate in our region. So I do take this subject to heart.

 

Finally, don't let this post stop you from expressing your comments to debate the issue and I am not mad at anyone here, just feel a need to support our art...

 

- Killer Miller -

[Knockdown]

it seems that you are mixing apples and oarnges here.

 

in this thread no one was putting down point fighting.

 

we were offering pointers for the transition to knockdown.

 

at least initially.

 

obviously the initial poster has been scared away with the

 

thread drift. it is too bad.

[Dijita]

Yes, no where in this thread did I see anyone put down Karate, or imply that it is useless.

 

I agree... I don't think the original poster should try to change his training, but perhaps just add to it the suggestions that were given if he/she doesn't already do so. Disiplined technique is extremely important as you say and I fully agree with that.

 

No one implied that Shotakan or traditional Karate-Ka practitioners don't train hard. I believe they train their butts off. I agree though, that it does happen in other threads often where people disregard the traditional karate-ka as ineffective, but it hasen't happened in this thread.

 

I'm just curious... and maybe this is off topic... but what are your opinions of Kyokushin? Do you consider it a traditional art?

[delta1]

Traditional karate can be used in contact fighting, but you have to train it that way. Some of the differences you will find:

 

Point fighting without contact developes some bad habbits. You may find that some of the blocks you got up in point fighting that saved a point really won't stop a full force strike. This is especially true with kicks.

 

It is a completely different thing to say that, yes, a shot got in to your head, and to have that shot actually turn your head and stun you. This is especially true when no one is going to yell 'break' before the follow up lands.

 

Often in no contact, you will think that you got a block up in time, where in actuality it caught the strike on the way out. Contact can be an eye opener here.

 

In no contact, it is easy to get into the habbit of squareing off and trying to launch strikes from medium to long distance so that the judges can see what you threw. In contact, those shots are likely to come from closer range and a lot quicker. You learn to move the target more and the blocks are used as much to position and control the opponent as to stop anything. And in close, the relative angles change.

 

Intent is another big difference. Most people think it is an easy transition from striking with intent to pull the punch and doing it with intent to take him out. This isn't necessarily the case, especially when you take into consideration that you are engaged in a sport that has rules. The object is not to injure your opponent, and so some shots won't be taken or allowed. You have to train with the rules of the game so that they are as much second nature as your fighting skills.

 

Just a few thoughts. I agree that you should start with moderate contact and work up with a competent trainer or partner. Use your traditional moves, but don't be afraid to modify things as needed to make them work for you. And enjoy!

 

Edit: I should add that I am not a sport fighter. The advice here is based on training with contact, not ring experience (and 'pblttt' to the large backside and the rest of the MT guys! ).

[EvilTed]

Well we have two shodans in JKA Shotokan at our dojo.

 

Both were trained in Japan - the man is Japanese, his wife is American.

 

On the question of JKA training and is it as hard?

 

You first need to define 'hard'.

 

I'm sure it is very aerobic since both are very fit but they both tell me the Kyokushin training model is more extreme and 'brutal'.

 

For example in our basic exercises we tend to do 100 kicks with each leg and 100 punches compared with 20-30 in more traditional styles.

 

Did they find noticeable differences when it came to sparring?

 

Both remarked it was dramatically different with the risk of bodily injury much higher.

 

The man just came back to training after a month off due to getting his nose broken by an axe kick to the face.

 

I'm actually unable to train myself for the last two weeks due to a severe back sprain that left me unable to walk for a couple of days

 

I'm getting physiotherapy now 3 days a week and may not be able to train for another two weeks. Add to this a split meniscus in my knee and just getting over a fractured bone in my ankle in February and I think you'll understand the 'hard' part of the argument.

 

It's not that traditional styles train less hard than full-contact, but rather that full-contact styles are a lot harder on the practitioner. One lapse of concentration during full-contact sparring, especially in the higher ranks can lead to serious injury.

 

Osu!

 

ET

[Ironberg]

All I have to contribute is the fact that point fighting was something invented in the United States. In the Orient, sparring back in the day was always more sensitive to making the person a better fighter - not a sportsman.

 

Do I despise point sparring - I do when I feel that it is limiting me somehow, shape or form. Evaluate yourself, and your motives with maturity.

[Fat Donkey]

Hey Killer, I was in for two years, I was a purple belt, but since belts don't indictae skill I didn't think to mention it. U also notice I said that Shotokan was one of the toughest training I ever had. What I was telling u was that I've tried the different levels of contact. I said u should give it a try and see how well point sparring did against full contact. But since u want to lay it down, lets get it on. JKA was the biggest thing around in the eighties when I was a kid, then they got soft and turned into McDojos. It was like TKD is today with a dojo in every shopping mall and 300lb black belts who couldnt waddle half a click. The one international contest my instructors went too the whole team got disqualified for hitting too hard during the point sparring. HITTING TOO HARD This attitude and the proliferation of McDojos spelled the end for JKA shotokan. So its simple, try the full contact and then talk. I believe there are some excellent TMA fighters out there, but i believe that most of them will train full contact and be OPEN to the experience.

[Killer Miller]

My comments may seem a littlte confusing on the thread - which I realize and didn't realize at the time of writing. However, my comments mix up comments of this thread, other threads, and also includes private messages that are not visible to others.

 

Is my view going to change on this subject - no... Do I need to take up full contact to prove a point - no. Have I participated in full contact in the past - yes. Have I seriously hurt people under these circumstances - yes. Did I feel good about doing that - no. Do I mind discussing the subject - sure, let's discuss. Is my tone a little direct at times - yes, but many times a message goes along with it and disrespect usually is not intended.

 

The only point on this thread I've been truly trying to make is that comparisons typically come from lower levels. That's fine with me, I have no problem with that at all. But please, don't imply to be an expert on comparisons at lower levels - granted maybe not this thread so much, but threads in general. I have some pretty impressive training credentials and I've seen and experienced a lot in my day that most of you haven't seen (not to say that some of you haven't done so as well).

 

Tone is strong perhaps this time and I'm not above apologizing to you guys/gals for that... But you all have to admit that the voicing on this forum about traditional karate have been pretty strong overall - which I will always defend.

 

Let's welcome discussion, but keep things factual and the bias out of the picture. Comments like "let's get it on" won't sit to well with me either...

 

- Killer Miller -