I am not a belt, I am a human being!

[Tim Greer]

[Subject title a poor rip off spoof of a 60's movie that we all know of].. okay, lame title, but I'm curious, how many people actually care what the color of their belt is? For that matter, the belt ranking? I just want to vent, briefly (I'll try -- brief, just isn't me).

 

Personally, I don't care for _anything_ but the knowledge, I can't care less about the belt ranking, the belt color, or any titles. I understand that some people use it as a goal. Also, how some (a lot of) schools won't further teaching a student, until they obtain a certain belt "rank". I think this is ridiculous.

 

Some school's use it as a means to try and push this "goal" onto students to make them feel it's a must, or holds some value that they must have, or at least to afford them the means to get more money to charge for an "ability test" to move onto the next belt color/rank.

 

I wouldn't be involved in a school that was dependant on this. It's okay to offer it and it gives some people an incentive, sure... it also gives people a goal, okay... and it also gives people something to reflect on and gauge how far they've come. This is all fine, but I'm curious how many people have seen these type's of schools that enforce it and what they think? I've seen schools that both do and do not, and yet hand out black belts to completely unqualified candidates.

 

Not that it matters much to me or my opinion, since it's trivial, but if there's a ranking system to measure the student's ability to be able to move onto more advanced courses, should they be giving black belts to students that only know the moves, execute them poorly and haven't earned this rank? To me, this reflects poorly on the school, of course.

 

Again, belts and ranking mean nothing to me, (I use it for the benefit(s) of reducing injury to my body while practicing), but I find it a bit odd that people are awarded these rankings, when they are simply "remembering" and executing (again, poorly) these "moves" that have been programmed into their brains and mean little more and are lacking any real substance that they can use or knowledge they can put to use anyway -- especially in a real world confrontation.

 

This can be for many reasons, but it's usually the most common that it's due to lack of the comprehension and/or coordination and heart to really be earning this alleged status. I'm just curious, if all you out there, have witnessed this gross misuse of this system, as much as I have? I find it highly annoying to see and I have absolutely no faith in any school that would misuse this system or abuse it in an improper manner. There, I've ranted (my first here).

 

 

[Taesujutsudrw]

Actually I satrted in Wing Chun before I studied anything else. I doen't(or at least didn't) have a belt system then.

 

The belt rakns to me are personal...it is something to strive for in knowledge gained.

 

However, I have students who don't wear belts..or for that matter who are BB level..and have never tested.

 

When you compete..you should wear a belt.

 

But I believe more than anything that The arts are in your heart and your mind..not around your waist.

 

Peace,

 

Tae

 

 

[Tim Greer]

As long as it's not enforced (in my opinion), I wouldn't have any issues about it. And, mainly, as long as the knowledge taught, is taught based on their ability and skill level and comprehension, not the belt they have. Again, I am aware people use belts for other reasons (personal reasons), such as you mentioned and that's fine and understandable. I guess it's the knowledge and the action that really drives me -- not that having a belt rank contribute to the situation at all means that's not true of that person as well. I don't think that, which I should be clear about -- I don't think belts are a bad thing, just that for me personally, they aren't a good or bad thing.

 

However, many do believe that they have some automatic meaning and that's about all that drives them... I.e., their goal, to be a "black belt", because that will mean they are good, excellent or where they should be to bad a skilled fighter. Of course, that's usually not the case by the belt alone. Anyway, I'm sure you understand what I meant. You mentioned how people should wear belts when they compete? In what manner and for what reason do you refer to this? To roughly match up the fighters at the same belt rank level, I assume? Do you also allow them or encourage them to compete against another person that is higher ranked than them, or are they truly limited by their belt rank in your opinion?

 

Don't get me wrong, I mean I understand you don't want to waste time or have any adverse results from some new practitioner compete against a fairly skilled one. Out of curiousity, do you allow any belt ranked student to attend and spar and practice with and/or against any other belt rank level (even the highest?) at your school? I'm just curious of any limitations, even if they don't seem altogether reasonable when first hearing the question posed.

 

 

[Angus]

I have been thru this subject a gazillion times but one more time can't hurt:

 

I have done hapkido, BJJ, FSK, zendo kai karate, wishu, boxing, and am now doing Goju Ryu karate. The only ones i have worn a unform and been tested for a hapkido and the latter karate.

 

I don't believe in the bet systems. It is my opinion that they trivialise the martials arts by saying "i'm a black belt and u aren't"... so what? I have been training since i was 6 and am ow 18. I tend to wipe the floor with many of the people i come up against in conflict or kumite (although i don't profess to be any good, it's just that i'm better than the morons i have fought).

 

However, i want to eventually go for top level security jobs and i consider that a nice reference and black belt certificate would be a good thing to have in a portfolio, that's why i now grade.

 

A lot of black belts don't liking being used as a mop by a white belt... it is quite funny.

 

We also have the issue of the McDojo, or fast food dojo who hand out belts like a burger. These students are often not suitable for the rank they are attaining and i have met many black belts that i would not realistically be any better than 5th kyu. If that...

 

It is a complex subject man, and it really does come down to preference.

 

Angus

 

 

[Tim Greer]

Angus, this is certainly true, or at least of some schools. However, I think that you would have to admit, that at least for some school's, it's not the intention to limit or con the students in some way, of course. I imagine that not all the school's that offer a belt ranking system are using it in such a negative manner as we have brought up, but it is certainly a reality in a lot of them.

 

I know what you are speaking about, and you too know that actions speak louder than a belt ranking. I recall the first day (my white belt) in some school somewhere, a well known teacher (not a bad one and a pretty good school), was doing some techniques and he just couldn't shut up about how I was "out doing" everyone else in the school -- including him. This didn't make me loose confidence in him or the school, because of the circumstances. I was simply better suited for these techniques and was a little more used to them and incline, due to my background.

 

I hated being pointed out as the example, it was embarrassing and awkward. I didn't like that, not when doing techniques I wasn't comfortable with and one's that didn't feel natural yet. Then, I recall how his two new "black belts" that just came back from Seattle, WA., were so terrible. I mean, I could clearly see by his teaching's that he was a good instructor, knew what he was doing and taught some good (and some I didn't like) techniques. I didn't assume this to be a fault of his, and the students, although a little shy, seemed to be happy and felt good about their accomplishments. Nice people, I wasn't going to say anything, but it made me uncomfortable nonetheless.

 

I mean, I didn't need to be there, but I wanted this knowledge to contribute to the total -- this is what I still do, for any style of technique I think it worth using. I did end up leaving and often joking about it and it just upset me. A travesty, indeed.

 

I can specifically relate to your complaint though. So many people that have nothing on you, yet try and open a school without a real, authentic and respected certification proving you're a "Black Belt", and good luck! People don't know better. I can easily say and think "Well, if they don't know how pointless that _can_ be (not that is always is, of course), or don't understand, then they aren't the type of student I want anyway", but you can't blame them, since they can't know, until they get that knowledge -- it's it's not exactly incorrect to believe otherwise anyway, as we all know. I mean, being a black belt isn't a bad thing at all, but sometimes it just doesn't mean much. Be it the style or the person... which is usually the person. Be it personally, they aren't very skilled, or just a poor teacher, or both.

 

Anyway, moving along with that though. I have empathy about it. I mean, a good working example; I program, do networking, system administration, blah, blah, blah... Well, I started in computers before they taught it in schools (not Uni, of course, but school) and always knew more than my teacher in my younger years -- and I mean, a lot more. I knew all about programming, networking, etc. before they had coursed. I.e., programming for Web servers, the software involved, configurations and securing them, etc. Few places teach that now.

 

However, no matter how much more qualified I am than another candidate, I don't have some worthless MSCE certificate to show that I understand very basic computer skills and how to use my mouse. So, I am faced with working for company's that understand how worthless an MSCE is (and that is likely means that person actually needed those courses -- not a good thing!) because some large IT company have no clue about it, or going and wasting all that time in my life, to get a certificate to show that I know how to remember very basic things that I've moved far beyond many, many, many years ago.

 

Believe me, going through schools for anything that you know, especially something you're so much more advanced at, would be a nightmare. Still, I am even considering on doing something along those lines, for both martial arts and computer related work, and they both make me cringe. Heh, maybe I'm just bitter? Still though, and I'm sure you agree, it's definitely not a bad thing, or you'd not be doing it and I'd hope, for your sake, and assume, that you might just learn something useful along the way? I mean, even if you're more skilled, you can still learn some good techniques from less skilled practitioner's.

 

 

[egarlock]

Instead of are belts good, bad, something else, I have a related question. How many of you have changed styles or just schools and gone back to being a "beginner" again? I've changed schools three times and I find a respect level frequently missing from those who currently outrank me. Yes, true respect must be earned, but just general social etiquette kind of respect. Has anyone else experienced this.

[Karateka]

I once switched schools, and I was not respected because I went to Kickboxing. My Sensei asked me if I was doing alright. I told him that although I wasn't being respected much, I enjoyed his class and came to learn. He was going to go and scold them, but got another idea. We were just about to do some sparring, so he told me to beat them then. So I did, and then I got a bit cocky, so he beat the crap out of me. I took a lot of punishment, sat down and cried. Then they all respected me for taking that amount of punishment.

 

 

[F-S-K]

yep the belts make sure that i give 100% all the time striving to seek the best, they also enable the teacher to see who is at what level quickly

 

(Edited by Admin: No images in sigs)

 

This Message was edited by: Patrick on Jun 26, 2001 8:19pm

[thaiboxerken]

I feel that belts only matter inside the school or organization in which they are given. Black belt does not necessarily mean a person can adequately even defend themselves these days. They are great in the few schools that actually use them the correct way, but there are too many McDojo's just giving belts away for the right $money$.

 

I feel the only belts that really matter are the ones that are won in the ring. Other than that, belts from most martial arts schools are nothing more than decoration.

 

_________________

 

Just kick 'em, they'll understand.

 

This Message was edited by: Patrick on Jun 26, 2001 8:20pm

[Karateka_latino]

I'm going to talk using my own experience as a example.

 

When i begun on the martial arts, i wanted to learn self defense, martial arts to me were something really really great and i wanted to be involved into that.

 

When i was studying , i started to be too much concern about Belts.. I wanted to have at least 3 Black belts in diferent systems.. I started to reserch on other styles and so.

 

But I was too busy Looking the Belts that at one point i realized that i wasn't training hard enough.. I use my time to dream on how cool it was going to be when i had Several black belts that i didn't realized that i wasn't progresing as a fighter and as a martial artist.

 

Now, i decided to not concern anymore about Belts.. only about training and knowlege , and let me tell you.. When you don't feel tied to a style, that allows you to REALLY learn other styles, to study better, to become a much better fighter and you feel open to learn any new technique.

 

Now, im a free style martial artist, and Im learning from everyone And i don't feel confused with the diferents styles. Also im learning a lot about philosophy for combat and for the life.

 

Like you said, in order to open a school you may need some certications, But as my Training partner and instructor said, " once you know all you need to know, and you are a good fighter and you are in shape , believe me that belts and certifications will come alone".. I can't be more agree with him.

 

I've been in the arts since 1986 and i feel NOW im starting to learn the True of the Martial Arts.

 

It's just my opinion, thanks.