Pressure Point Fighting

[ppko]

For quite some time i've considered myself reasonably educated on pressure points. I also don't consider them very useful, and there are three main reasons for this:

 

1. Mind game

 

My earlier example, of being able to tickle your little sister or brother from a distance (not touching them... just waving you fingers around and they fall to the ground laughing their head off) is done because you previously subjected them to a few (or many) 'actual' tickle assaults. This is the basis for why 'some' pressure point systems are based on a misconception.

 

Many instructors of pressure point systems are, in fact, slowly training the minds of their students to be susceptible to these techniques. Such things are witnessed with faith healers, voodooists, cultists, and hypnotists, where a person is given a suggestion, the suggestion is reinforced via stimuli (pain, fear, embarrassment, etc) and that suggestion becomes a personal reality. This is one of the main reasons these instructors are unable to affect their techniques outside of their 'domain of control' (aka: dojo and subordinate students). They simply don't have the position of authority to affect these things, and have not had the time to 'prep' these strangers into being susceptible.

 

2. Not instinctual

 

The underlying flaw to 'real' pressure point techniques are it is almost impossible to bring such studies out of the 'thinking' process and into the 'doing' process. What i mean by this is, it is exceedingly unlikely that you can train your mind or your body to instinctively apply pressure points during a 'live' incident. Things happen too fast and pressure points become an afterthought. In fact, that's the problem... they ARE a thought. This is because such studies are not instinctive.

 

3. Chemically influenced

 

To rub this a little further, of the times i have implemented pressure point techniques, they don't work too well on opponents whose muscles are pumped up, who is adrenaline-filled, riding high on uppers, genuinely furious, riding low on downers, drunk as a wild turkey, hyperventilating, generally whacked out of their mind, etc...

 

When you consider that the vast majority of 'life-threatening' confrontations fall into one of the above categories, i would say it's cute but mostly ineffective... when it counts. Best thing to do is focus instead on studying vital areas and making 'that' second nature.

 

And for a shortcut on vital areas, whatever is ticklish, is also exploitable. Vital areas are masses that exist all about the body. It is far more instinctive to learn and generally they are far easier to attack.

Well the pressure points actually work better on people that are drug induced, if they drink they have weak Li points, if the smoke they have weak L points, if they used cocain H and P points are affected. We have police officers in NYC that praise us all the time for the points because without them they may not have came out alive.

 

All you have to do is work set patterns of movement to make them instictual , they are just like anything else.

 

PPKO

[White Warlock]

Without attempting to sound too facetious, do you normally get an opportunity to do a drug test on your adversaries before being attacked by them in a dark alley?

 

Assuming not, how much 'thinking' is needed before applying the right combination of letters (Li, L, H, P, M, I, C, K, E, Y, M, O, U, S, E)?

Edited June 11, 2004 by White Warlock

[nitroice0069]

I see where you are coming from White Warlock but I have to disagree. I all ready stated why I don't believe it is a mind game. Actual every once and a while my Sensei will ask random people in the waiting room or out in the lobby if they would like to be in a demonstration. Trust me it effects them too. For your second point. What brings you to say parry a hand away then back fist them. Its not instinct, instinct would tell you to push/punch back not defend against it. So it is like every martial art you have to train for that type of situation until it becomes engraved into you. For your third point. The only people I have found that are not very susceptible to pressure points are electricians. They have experienced so much electrical overload that the synapse are not as sensitive so impulses. Also if a person is built it is actually easier to activate points on them. All most all points are above the muscle not below therefore easier to get to. Pressure points also work on people that are drunk. Have you ever seen a drunk person tell stories. They over exaggerate them. Well they do that to pain also. Beside if you are fighting a drunk person chances are that they are so drunk they wont be able to hit you in the first place and will just fall over after they throw a couple "haymakers".

 

JamEs

[DLopez]

I get the feeling that many here have a misconception about pressure points, and how and when to attack them. Attacking pressure points isn't some mystical technique where you poke someone with your index finger and leave them writhing in pain.

 

We learn pressure point attacks in conjunction with our joint lock and control techniques to enhance the overall effectiveness of the technique. But as always is the case, the specific situation will determine which technique is most appropriate, and if you employ the wrong one, it's the same mistake as say, a "grappler" trying to wrestle someone 50 lbs heavier than they to the ground, or a "striker" only trying to go for the head shot with spinning and jumping kicks.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, pressure point attacks isn't an end all be all weapon in itself, but rather (at least in KSW), just another tool in our arsenal of weapons to use. And they do work, whether you choose to believe it or not.

 

What I find a little exasperating is the feeling I get by many here that if something like pressure point attacks or joint lock/throws are not something you can learn in a lesson or two, then they're useless.

[MauyThaiMonster]

I see where you are coming from White Warlock but I have to disagree. I all ready stated why I don't believe it is a mind game. Actual every once and a while my Sensei will ask random people in the waiting room or out in the lobby if they would like to be in a demonstration. Trust me it effects them too. For your second point. What brings you to say parry a hand away then back fist them. Its not instinct, instinct would tell you to push/punch back not defend against it. So it is like every martial art you have to train for that type of situation until it becomes engraved into you. For your third point. The only people I have found that are not very susceptible to pressure points are electricians. They have experienced so much electrical overload that the synapse are not as sensitive so impulses. Also if a person is built it is actually easier to activate points on them. All most all points are above the muscle not below therefore easier to get to. Pressure points also work on people that are drunk. Have you ever seen a drunk person tell stories. They over exaggerate them. Well they do that to pain also. Beside if you are fighting a drunk person chances are that they are so drunk they wont be able to hit you in the first place and will just fall over after they throw a couple "haymakers".

 

JamEs

 

Is this a joke?

 

Thats the biggest load of rubbish i have ever hear. Im sorry but even children know that alcahol dims the sences. People used to get drunk before operations when there was no anesthetic (spellling).

 

I had a freind that did this pressure point nonsence on me, it hurt yes, but not enough to stop me, and um oh yeah, i wasnt allowed to resist.

 

what a joke

[White Warlock]

DLopez, i get the feeling you have a different definition for pressure points than that of the Dillman group. Sounds more to me like you're referring to vital areas, but maybe if you describe 'your' training on pps, this could get cleared up a bit quicker.

Actual every once and a while my Sensei will ask random people in the waiting room or out in the lobby if they would like to be in a demonstration. Trust me it effects them too.

I'm not surprised. I'm also not surprised that you didn't understand my post.

For your second point. What brings you to say parry a hand away then back fist them. Its not instinct, instinct would tell you to push/punch back not defend against it.

Please don't confuse instinct with muscle memory. Instinctively you know where your joints are and how they move (basic mechanics), where you are ticklish (basic anatomy), and leverage vs power (basic physics). The study of pressure points is not instinctual.

Pressure points also work on people that are drunk. Have you ever seen a drunk person tell stories. They over exaggerate them. Well they do that to pain also.

I get the impression you think i was born yesterday. I was not, so please... no double talk.

 

Some drunk people tell stories and some drunk people exaggerate, as do some 'sober' people. But, if we were to push this drunk angle, this is due to a decrease in inhibitions. Your argument about pain falls flat on its face, as those inebriated are actually less susceptible to pain.

Beside if you are fighting a drunk person chances are that they are so drunk they wont be able to hit you in the first place and will just fall over after they throw a couple "haymakers".

One does not relate to the other. Just because it might be easier to fight a drunk person does not substantiate the effectiveness or relevancy of pressure points.

All you have to do is work set patterns of movement to make them instictual , they are just like anything else.

Then we are in disagreement. Especially since instinct and 'mind/body' training are not one and the same. You could train yourself to override instinct, as long as 'fight/flight' doesn't override you. As i stated above, seems both of you misunderstood the paragraph on instinct and therein assumed incorrectly what i was inferring.

 

Before i continue with these discussions... may i be so intrusive as to ask how long either of you (nitroice0069, ppko) have been studying pressure points?

[Reklats]

I will say this in response to the notion that attacking pressure points requires a cooperative opponent, especially the "grapplers" that think tackling someone is all you need to do - grappling has so many weaknesses of its own, the most glaring obvious one is the weight advantage it requires, especially when going up against someone larger than you.

 

Talk about requiring a "cooperative" opponent - like asking your opponent to drop 50 or 60 lbs. before you'll fight them - or are you counting on only fighting guys your size or smaller?

 

Size and strength are more easily negated with grappling than your average striking art. Jiu-jitsu is all about isolating one joint or part of your opponent against your entire body. If anything grapplers can compensate better for a stronger/heavier opponent than strikers.

 

You say stuff about weight in grappling a few times in this thread... Try to get an understanding of it before you make any more completely wrong assumptions.

[White Warlock]

Agreed Reklats. During my college years, i would wrestle the bigger guys all the time... and they were easier to wrestle than the little tykes who would pitbull on one of my limbs.

[DLopez]

Size and strength are more easily negated with grappling than your average striking art. Jiu-jitsu is all about isolating one joint or part of your opponent against your entire body. If anything grapplers can compensate better for a stronger/heavier opponent than strikers.

 

Sometimes I just can't believe what I read on here...

 

Surely you know that it's a classic technique to outmaneuver a larger opponent, picking and choosing when and where to attack, that gives you a better chance than diving in and playing to the bigger person's strength.

 

Just so you know, I'm not "anti-grappler", as KSW teaches grappling techniques too, but I fail to understand why so many JJ folks think they can take anyone anyday with just grappling techniques? I'm of the opinion that I will use the technique best suited for a given situation, whether it be a kick to the knee, a punch to the head, a throw, or an arm bar on the ground. I'm not going to go straightaway for the arm bar on the ground.

 

What is an "average striking art" anyway??

 

PS - Reklats, why would you call me out on my "completely wrong assumptions" and not call out those with wrong assumptions against pressure point attacks? May I suggest you likewise get a better understanding of pressure point attacks if you feel they are useless.

[nitroice0069]

MauyThaiMonster, then your friend did it incorrectly. Yes alcohol dims some sense but not all and I was branching off of ppko's post on how some point work better during certain situations. Yes the study of pressure points is not instinctual neither is any other martial art for that matter. Also a lot of pressure points work off of basic Newtonian physics and anatomical points. When I said you probably wont have trouble fighting a drunk person anyway that wasn't meant for the argument of pressure points that was me saying how you wouldn't have use them anyway. Just like when people say they are going to kick you in the head or poke your eyes out if you push them. What's the point the person pushed do they deserve to maybe never see again or suffer a broken jaw or even worse death because they pushed you its not like they threatened your life. I have only been studding pressure points for about 2 years. Also don't take me wrong that is not the only thing we study. Actually we probably study kicks, joint locks, punches, ect more then pressure points but my master has a vast knowledge of them. He is also probably one of the best for someone to learn them from also. Sorry for the confusion.

 

JamEs