Opinions please

[SevenStar]

To me it sems liek full contact would result in a lot of knockouts, bleeding, and broken bones...all of which I generally try to avoid...

That's my objection too with fullcontact; my health is very important to me.

 

that's not true. injuries wil be sustained, but they are not as common as you think.

[TangSooGuy]

Let's agree to disagree on this subject. It's apparently a debate that's not going to come to any middle ground.

 

So I'm not going to try to convince anyone, I'm just going to relate some of my experiences.

 

I was teaching along with a partner at a clinic this past weekend, and the subject was sparring. At one point we were demonstrating sparring at an advanced level, but with no gear, and no conact (at least that ws the plan). I got a little off balance and took a shot to the ribs, hard.

 

Let's see: I experienced adrenaline rush, I experienced intense pain. What I did NOT do is drop my guard, or stop fighting. I dis not cry out or ask my partner if we could stop. I was not "shocked" at the amount of pain I was in. It still hurts today, at at one point it was hurting so bad to move, that I thought I might have bruised or even cracked a rib.

 

Perhaps I should have been so shocked by the experience of adrenaline and pain that I would have stopped fighting, or should have been "unprepared" to have kept going without a pause, but that isn't what happened.

 

Or, at the very least, since we only do semi-contact sparring, my partner's technique should have lacked power and been ineffective...it wasn't, it hurt like hell, and as I said, it still does. He wasn't trying to hit me, but it happens now and again. And when it does, it hurts. Sometimes we get injured, and we deal with it and move on, just like anyone should.

 

I know a lot of stories of people who have used the abilities learned in non-contact arts to defend themselves in real situations. I know of a woman who worked as a nurse in a prison facility who had been training less than 6 months, when one of the prisones grabbed her. As soon as she felt him grabbing, she instinctively dropped down and blasted him in the knee with a side kick. He went down like a ton of bricks. She got up and walked away.

 

There are dozens of similar stories I could relate.

 

Now here's my disclaimer: When you fight for light contact or no contact situations, you can't allow yourself to be so restricted by a set of rules that you're not prepared to throw other techniques (such as kicks to the knee) when they are needed. You must also practice striking objects, such as a heavy bag with full power strikes. It's one of the reasons so many traditional arts practice breaking. While it's true that "boards don't hit back", that statement ignores the purpose of bteaking, which teached both focus and penetration. If you can't break one board with a technique (or even multiple boards), you can't expect that that technique is going to cause any physical harm to anyone...

 

But I digress. The ability to fight is actually one of the least important things the martial arts have taught me. The ability to avoid fighting is far greater. Because of what I've learned in the martial arts, I don't expect that I'll be in a "real" fight today, or even this year, or maybe ever. If I am, I am prepared for it.

 

...As to the comments of getting in the ring...I've been there, I've done that, and I've come out mostly unharmed. I've received black eyes. I once got my nose broken. I've returned the same to others. I've been close to knocked out, and I've knocked out other people on at least 3 occasions. The experience did not make me believe there was anything ineffective about my training, nor did it make me want to run out and do it more. I'm not looking to get hurt, and I don't enjoy hurting others, either. I proved to myself that the techniques I learned will work, and proved that I could take a blow and shrug it off. I did this without having ever trained exclusively for full contact. I've done it by visiting other schools that train full contact (after being invited), and I've done it with friends that just wanted the experience of "going a little harder". Through it all, I was never once convinced that I need to change anything about the way I train. I consider the experiences I've had with full contact valuable, as all experiences are. I do not consider them a defining point in my martial arts career, other than perhaps as validation that what I'm doing works as well as what others are doing.

 

Sorry, I know I'm rambling a little bit, but I wanted everyone to know that I experienced fighting on all of these levels, and I know others who have. Through it alll, I've never come across any hard evidence that full contact is superior, nor that semi-contact is superior. In the end, it has always come down to who is more experienced, who wants it more, and who is more 'on' on a given day. In my experience, it comes down to the individual and how seriously they take their training, not to the style of that training.

[embm]

We train in both muay thai kickboxing and point sparring in our school. Do I need to take a punch to show I am a bad *? No. Can I take a punch? Absolutely. Have I? Yes. Is point sparring useless in a fight? No, because point sparring teaches you how to block and counter, avoid punches and kicks; it teaches you to look for openings when your opponent is off balance. Would I use point sparring in a street fight? No. I would fall back on my self defense, which is to do the most damage in the least amount of time and GET AWAY from my attacker. One of the most important aspect of learning martial arts, I believe, is knowing when to fight.

[SevenStar]

Let's see: I experienced adrenaline rush, I experienced intense pain. What I did NOT do is drop my guard, or stop fighting. I dis not cry out or ask my partner if we could stop. I was not "shocked" at the amount of pain I was in. It still hurts today, at at one point it was hurting so bad to move, that I thought I might have bruised or even cracked a rib.

 

you experienced a rush during a demo? why? As far as dropping your guard, please read though what I've said and quote the portion where I said you would drop your guard, or even stop fighting. you will soon find that I didn't say that.

 

There are dozens of similar stories I could relate.

 

I can do the same to support my statments. plus the scientific studies that support it.

 

Now here's my disclaimer: When you fight for light contact or no contact situations, you can't allow yourself to be so restricted by a set of rules that you're not prepared to throw other techniques (such as kicks to the knee) when they are needed.

 

you can do that with contact. it's actually quite hard to damage a knee unless you strike it dead on while it isn't bent. in MT, we kick to the knees alot.

 

You must also practice striking objects, such as a heavy bag with full power strikes. It's one of the reasons so many traditional arts practice breaking. While it's true that "boards don't hit back", that statement ignores the purpose of bteaking, which teached both focus and penetration. If you can't break one board with a technique (or even multiple boards), you can't expect that that technique is going to cause any physical harm to anyone...

 

I see what you're saying, but somewhat disagree. most boxer, thai boxers, etc. have no clue whether or not they can break boards, and likely cannot break bricks. However, look at the striking power they have. I don't care if tyson can break a brick or not, he can still knock someone on their butt.

 

But I digress. The ability to fight is actually one of the least important things the martial arts have taught me. The ability to avoid fighting is far greater. Because of what I've learned in the martial arts, I don't expect that I'll be in a "real" fight today, or even this year, or maybe ever. If I am, I am prepared for it.

 

I believe that your second to last sentence sums up why many people train the way that they do today - it's unlikely that they will get into a fight. we no longer live in times where you have a great chance of being attacked. Fighting was one of the most important things they learned back then, I'm sure.

 

In my experience, it comes down to the individual and how seriously they take their training, not to the style of that training.

 

style - possibly, but that's because of the training methods that they employ -that's what's important. because of this, style definitely makes a difference.

[TangSooGuy]

SevenStar: You seem like an intelligent person, please don't think my reply was directed entirely at you. I'm also not in any way claiming that there is anything wrong with full contact fighting. The problem I have is when people claim that it is superior to any other method of training. I've stepped into "the ring" with full contact fighters. I've "won", I've "lost", most of the time we'd both come out with some bumps and bruises and come out okay...

 

Some of the guys I've sparred with used to be semi-professional boxers. Some of the guys I've sparred with were kickboxers. Some of the guys I've sparred with just liked to beat on each other. I still didn't see anything that gave them any advantage over me in the "ring", or in the real world.

 

I'm really not trying to sound like an egomaniac...again just relating personal experiences.

 

Let me respond to a few things in an attempt to clarify:

you experienced a rush during a demo? why?

 

Mostly because I got hit....and it hurt. But actually I experience a "rush" every time I fight. maybe it's not quite as 'intense' as it would be a "real" situation, but honestly, I think people place far to much emphasis on this...

 

I'm not sure that the "science" has ever been done on it, but I'm not convinced the adrenaline levels in a full contact match really get much higher than in a semi-contact match where the participants are really into it...

you can do that with contact. it's actually quite hard to damage a knee unless you strike it dead on while it isn't bent. in MT, we kick to the knees alot.

 

All I was attempting to say is that some point figters restrict themselves too much when it comes to different targets. I figured you'd agree with me on that one...

I see what you're saying, but somewhat disagree. most boxer, thai boxers, etc. have no clue whether or not they can break boards, and likely cannot break bricks

 

I'd wager that most could do it, and pretty easily. Again all I'm attempting to say is that breaking is the tool that is used for non-contact fighters to practice techniques that generate power, focus, and penetration. it's a method of ensuring that not all strikes are "pulled"...

Fighting was one of the most important things they learned back then, I'm sure.

 

Okay, when I said "least" important, I was probably stretching things a bit, I'll admit...But even ancient textsindicate that knowing when not to fight, and the ability to avoid fighting when possible is preferable to rushing in headfirst...

style - possibly, but that's because of the training methods that they employ -that's what's important. because of this, style definitely makes a difference.

 

I probably should never have used the word "style" here...I was actually referring to light contact vs. full contact in that particular passage.

 

 

There are dozens of similar stories I could relate.

I can do the same to support my statments. plus the scientific studies that support it.

 

Again, I agree, which is why I say it comes down to the individual. I am curious about which "scientific studies" you ar ereferring to, as I'm always willing to learn more. In my experience though, for every scientific finding, there's another somewhere that contradicts it...

 

Okay, one more time...I am NOT saying that there is anything wrong with full contact fighting. But there is not anything inherently wrong with light contact fighting either. The problem is when people only ever think about applying that light contact in competition...and ignore studying what they would do in other situations...

[SevenStar]

I agree completely with what you just said.

 

Over the weekend, something happened that goes along with what I've been talking about:

 

there were some fights this weekend. One was a TKD blackbelt who recently watched some kickboxing and thai boxing fights and decided he wanted to fight full contact. He found some guys to train with, and three weeks later stepped into the ring (this past saturday). Not only was he knocked unconscious, his eye is swollen shut - he had no business in the ring, with so little full contact experience.

[tommarker]

Sevenstar,

 

While I would not suggest to anyone to make the transition to full contact kickboxing after a brief time in the martial arts...

 

What rules did this young man agree to fight under? Muay Thai or TKD? Very different animals, IMHO and not just because of the contact thing. Different techniques, strategies, etc. If they'd fought "his way" at full contact, perhaps the outcome would have been different.

 

I see a lot of people who go "all out" and take pride in making TKD sissies howl like little girls and scream "that's not fair"

 

I wonder if they'd think it's fair to take a screwdriver in the kidneys during a clinch? Sometimes it boils down to rules, you know? It's the folly of all martial artists... plenty of bigheaded full contact guys who would get "out-thugged" on the streets just as quick as their "mcdojo" equivalent.

 

On the other hand, knowing how to take a shot and deal with a truly aggressive opponent is a good skill to have, and is highly neglected in these days of "one handed, non-motivated attackers."

 

TSG, I'm sorry I didn't make it to your seminar this weekend, but I was on the other side of the field doing tiger/crane style... sparring scares me

[TangSooGuy]

TSG, I'm sorry I didn't make it to your seminar this weekend, but I was on the other side of the field doing tiger/crane style... sparring scares me

 

SURE it does....

 

but we weren't sparring with knives or ropes or canes or other improvised weapons, so maybe it WAS out of your natural realm...

 

[SevenStar]

Sevenstar,

 

While I would not suggest to anyone to make the transition to full contact kickboxing after a brief time in the martial arts...

 

What rules did this young man agree to fight under? Muay Thai or TKD? Very different animals, IMHO and not just because of the contact thing. Different techniques, strategies, etc. If they'd fought "his way" at full contact, perhaps the outcome would have been different.

 

he should've been right at home - it was american rules - no knees, no leg kicks.

 

I see a lot of people who go "all out" and take pride in making TKD sissies howl like little girls and scream "that's not fair"

 

I wonder if they'd think it's fair to take a screwdriver in the kidneys during a clinch? Sometimes it boils down to rules, you know? It's the folly of all martial artists... plenty of bigheaded full contact guys who would get "out-thugged" on the streets just as quick as their "mcdojo" equivalent.

 

yeah, that definitely plays a part - you must train for the rules you're fighting under.

[Ripper]

You would think that after more then 1000 posts Sevenstar would know by now how that quote thing works.