Opinions please

[White Warlock]

Hmm, i don't believe i ever used the word, "think."

It is the muscle memory which is going to determine your defense and counters. U have more choice in your attacks but if your being fluid with combos again its muscle memory.

Defense and counters, as you stated. Visualization isn't about defense and counters, at least not in san soo. Visualization is about attack and finish. Yes, muscle memory is important, and i agree that full contact plays a part there in ensuring your reaction skills are not faulty, but when it comes to offense, to attack, it is more a fluid synergy of mind and body... here is where many people flounder (i see this alot with boxers).

So while I disagree with your visualization concept, I do agree with the continuos practice of techniques because your programming your body to do these techniques when u don't have time to think. I believe in not visualising anything, except victory.

 

Ahh, but how do you attain victory if victory is but an abstraction?

 

Let me pop a bubble. Visualization is not a thought process, but a mental snapshot or video. A series of pictures in your mind about what it takes to attain success. Yes, it does go hand-in-hand with muscle memory, in that you train your mind and body to act as one so that when you are in a confrontation and a picture presents itself, the mind automatically recognizes the opportunity and enters the body to complete a series of actions the muscles have previously been trained to commit.

 

Muscles do not see, nor does the body, nor always the eyes for that matter. What sees is the mind, and it is the mind that exploits opportunities, offense, and it is the muscles that react, defense.

I have to remain completely open and not let pre-conceived ideas lead me into a losing strategy. No mind

I assume your use of the words, "no mind" are in reference to "not thinking." Of this, i would agree. I also agree that preconcieved ideas can lead one into a losing strategy, but only if that strategy is implemented without consideration for the body. I.e., if i think to communicate to my body to act, but my muscles state otherwise, there is conflict. This is why mind/body synergy is important.

 

Grabbing discussion i had awhile back, Bruce Lee went through some changes. He initially followed wing chun stringently, then modified it and adopted techniques from other systems and created Jun Fan Do (named after himself, Jun Fan). During this time, he held to the belief that actions could dictate a conflict.

 

Later in life, he created Jeet Kune Do (Way of the intercepting fist), which was based on the idea that one could rely wholey on muscle memory to 'intercept' any attack before it is committed. Jeet kune do was entirely reactionary, where the attack and defense were one and the same. Such a system was very effective in countering, but there were nonetheless some inherent weaknesses, one of which being no closure.

 

Even later in life, Mr. Lee came upon a significant revelation. He described it as "no way, as way" and compared a true master as being "like water." Essentially, he went from techniques, to muscle memory, to adaption.

 

Adaption is that of having both mind and body in perfect harmony, where all that you know becomes all that you do (although, not all that you are), and if someone were to attack you in a way you had never encountered, you would now know that one way... instantly, and adapt it to all that you do, thus countering and then closing.

 

How does this apply to visualization as practiced in san soo? It is merely a tool. Visualization serves to 'present' a portion of tools which help to obtain perfect harmony. It is not the end-all, nor could it possibly stand alone. In fact, harmony of mind/body could be obtained without ever studying visualization techniques. However, as is the case with all tools, it gets the job done just a little quicker, just as long as you remember... they're just tools.

[TangSooGuy]

I don't think the idea of semi-contact, or no contact sparring is really flawed, it's the execution of that sparring that is flawed. I've pretty much always done semi-contact sparring, occasionally more to the full contact side of things, but I'm still confident that even when sparring no contact, the techniques I use would work whene executed properly.

 

Why? Because I've always been taught that the goal of no contact sparring was to execute my techniques at full speed, with full power, but not actually strike the target.

 

In some ways, this is actually HARDER to do than full-contact fighting, because you are attempting to put everything you have into a technique, but stop just short of the actual blow.

 

Some would argue that practicing this way makes you ineffective, that you'd always stop short in a real fight. Again, I disagree. I still practice striking targets and heavy bags,and even boards with full power techniques. I know the difference between penetrating with a technique and stopping short.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that many peple never progress beyond the "beginner level" stages of no or semi- contact sparring. In the beginning stages, it is often necessary for practitioners to slow their techniques, or back down on power somewhat, due to a lack of control. (in other words to stop them from killing each other). Many never progress beyond this stage, at which techniques are not being used truly effectively. As one progresses, however, control should increase, and so should the speed and power of the techniques being used.

 

I know that my techniques can work, because the few times when my control has been a little off, I've been able to drop large men (250 lbs +) like a ton of bricks. On one occasion I even accidentally knocked someone out for a couple of seconds.

 

Hey, that's what the head gear is for, right?

 

Seriously, though, I'm not out to get hurt or hurt anyone, but I don't think even no contact sparring will, or even should, preclude anyone from taking a hit now and again. I know what a good hit feels like, and I'd say most experienced martial artists can say the same, regardless of how they spar. I agree that if you've never taken a real hit, you're really not going to what to expect.

 

Even this can be prepared for to a degree, though. While I'm not out to create pain, you can simulate the effects of certain strikes or injuries. I've made my students try to fight while dizzy (make them soin around for awhile first), with only one arm or leg (simulating injury), or even while trying to hold their breath (strikes to the stomach or chest can cause the temporary inability to breathe).

 

It's important that we train for different situations, and for the unexpected, but i don't agree that full contact is needed to prepare people for those situations, nor to make techniques effective.

 

I don't see anything inherently worng with training full contact either, other than the possibility of sustaining more injuries, but if you don't see that as a distinct possibility when going into a full contact match, then I have to ask what you are thinking.

 

Sorry, I realize I'm starting to babble, but it's simply not true that all no-contact or semi-contact fighters don't know how to fight in a real situation. Nor is true that all of them do know how. The same can be said of full contact fighters, though, in my experience.

[White Warlock]

Returning to what TSG is talking about, semi-contact/no-contact vs full-contact ...

 

Of your thoughts TSG, i can only offer my opinions... based on personal experience.

 

Of my personal experiences, semi-contact / no-contact does not teach one to take a hit in vital areas, such as the nose, mouth, solar plexus, thigh, etc, and continue on, without missing a beat. It doesn't teach how to 'roll' with a strike, how to displace the energy from an impact, or how to recover quickly from a hard shot. It also doesn't provide the opportunity to expose one's underlying dependencies and weaknesses.

 

When i used to instruct, i would occasionally spar with my students. I would do this to determine what their fallbacks were. This could only be determined when i 'pressured' them, through rough or full contact. Their tendency to drop an arm, or lean to one side, or any of the other consistent errors one would commit to when fear and pain are clouding your mind. Without full contact, i wouldn't be able to locate these flaws and help my students wean out of them.

 

On the few occasions, in the distant past, where i sparred full contact with persons who had trained semi, i would always pressure them, locate their tendencies, and then exploit them. It was very easy and very disconcerting to them. In fact, one bluntly requested that i stop taking advantage of the tendency, as it was only causing it to become more prevalent. Essentially, because i was exploiting it, the flaw was becoming ingrained. In many ways, it's like how some of you can tickle your little brother or sister, just by suggestion or gesticulation.

 

I totally agree with you TSG, that full contact creates many 'bad habits' and that these habits become ingrained. Habits that may be fine in the ring, but are suicide in the streets. But, i also know that semi/no contact creates its own habits. That of not committing when encountering a 'live' opponent, and of not exposing the various exploitable characteristics of your psyche. Characteristics that truly only become evident when "fight or flight" takes hold.

[TangSooGuy]

Of my personal experiences, semi-contact / no-contact does not teach one to take a hit in vital areas, such as the nose, mouth, solar plexus, thigh, etc, and continue on, without missing a beat. It doesn't teach how to 'roll' with a strike, how to displace the energy from an impact, or how to recover quickly from a hard shot. It also doesn't provide the opportunity to expose one's underlying dependencies and weaknesses.

 

I guess my definition of "semi-contact" must be a little broader than most, as I've taken pretty solid hits to all of the above areas, and given them out as well...also the groin, shins, kidneys, back, etc....

 

I also see nothing wrong with using elbows and knees to block and strike...

 

one of my favorite techniques is to block incoming kicks with my elbows...

 

And kicking someone in the thigh is a great way to stop them from kicking you...

 

I'll agree that if you only fight by "tournament rules" you're going to be in trouble in a real fight, but I don't think tournament and no/light contact have to be synonomous...

 

How do you define the line between "semi/light contact" and "full contact"?

 

To me it sems liek full contact would result in a lot of knockouts, bleeding, and broken bones...all of which I generally try to avoid...I've caused a few people to bleed from time to time, but that's really not been my intent...

[Ripper]

I guess my definition of "semi-contact" must be a little broader than most, as I've taken pretty solid hits to all of the above areas, and given them out as well...also the groin, shins, kidneys, back, etc....

 

I've had my share of semicontact sparring too, and believe me; there is enough full contact. My definition of semicontact is; on the face only skintouch but on the body you can go full force.

To me it sems liek full contact would result in a lot of knockouts, bleeding, and broken bones...all of which I generally try to avoid...

That's my objection too with fullcontact; my health is very important to me.

[Ripper]

..... how to displace the energy from an impact....

That's interesting; how do you do that??

Without full contact, i wouldn't be able to locate these flaws and help my students wean out of them.

With the definition I just gave in the other post, it's perfectly possible. I do the same when I spar with someone. If my opponent has a flaw and he doesn't get it I let him feel it. So, no problem there.

But, i also know that semi/no contact creates its own habits. That of not committing when encountering a 'live' opponent, and of not exposing the various exploitable characteristics of your psyche. Characteristics that truly only become evident when "fight or flight" takes hold.

That has nothing to do with training full or semicontact. It depends on who is training. In the past there where enough people who chickened out when we where training for semicontact-championships.

[White Warlock]

..... how to displace the energy from an impact....

That's interesting; how do you do that??

In words? That's why you can only really learn it with full contact.

 

It's basically instinctively rolling with a punch (as noted by watching a boxer get a shot in the head), giving your body slight turns to redirect the energy (not allowing a strike to penetrate to the center), and of subduing and displacing the wave created by a hit (energy is dispatched in the form of waves), etc.

 

Of the last, your body is essentially a big bag of water and fiber, surrounding a bone frame, so an impact presents waves that change when encountering the body. A well placed impact can send a wave that penetrates deep and injures organs or break bones. However, one can learn to train the body to absorb and buffer these waves. A hard object does little to defeat a wave, while a soft object does little to buffer an impact. What you need is to learn how to be both hard and soft when receiving an impact, so that when you are hit, you resist the initial damage from the shallow impact with hard and defeat the wave with soft. You essentially suppress the wave, and/or create a counter-wave within your own body. In practice it is much less complicated.

Without full contact, i wouldn't be able to locate these flaws and help my students wean out of them.

With the definition I just gave in the other post, it's perfectly possible. I do the same when I spar with someone. If my opponent has a flaw and he doesn't get it I let him feel it. So, no problem there.

I'm not quite sure we're on the same page here. During low/semi-impact practice, many flaws are apparent and they can be pointed out to the sparring partner. But, there are flaws that only present themselves when a person is being pressured with full-on attacks. These flaws are not merely things like having the arm come down as i mentioned before, leaving the head exposed. Many are more critical, such as a person cowering, falling into a defensive 'pattern,' shortfalling with attacks, overfocusing on the upper body, etc. These are things that get worse if you push it in a fight, so full contact is applied to make these problems apparent, but not to get rid of these problems. The practitioner needs to spend time working these things out of their 'habit,' in low/semi-contact before they can full-on spar again.

[Ripper]

Grrrr......had a nice and long answer but it's gone. So here's the short version.

[in practice it is much less complicated.

 

To me it sounds much to complicated and ellaborate so I have a hard time believing it.

 

I do know that after years of training my body can take hits better. I don't know why. It's not because I do it the way you described. It's also not because my body is physically better trained (stronger muscles, etc.). Why not? I usually spar with my left foot forward. When I spar with my right foot forward it feels like getting hit on the right side of my body hurts more. My body is equally trained on both sides so that can't be the answer. Maybe my left side of my body is used to getting hit and my mind is getting adapted to these hits, while in fact the hits have the same impact on either side? Haven't really thought about it.

I'm not quite sure we're on the same page here.

 

..... But, there are flaws that only present themselves when a person is being pressured with full-on attacks. .....such as a person cowering, falling into a defensive 'pattern,' shortfalling with attacks, overfocusing on the upper body, etc.

The way I read your post, you said that you can't teach or train a lot of things doing it semicontact. I say you can. Also the type of flaws you mention above. Just let a black belt spar a lower belt or a big one a smaller one and let them go fullforce (using many techniques and not fullcontact). These flaws will get apparent. Also in a healthier way, which is very important to me. Going to the office with a black eye is also something you don't want to do every week.

 

I do agree that if you must go to the limit, going fullcontact every now and then is a way of doing that.

[White Warlock]

The way I read your post, you said that you can't teach or train a lot of things doing it semicontact. I say you can

Then you read it wrong, because that's not what i said.

 

 

In practice it is much less complicated.

 

To me it sounds much to complicated and ellaborate so I have a hard time believing it.

Well, as you said, you "haven't really thought about it." I'm not here to convert you, so... frankly, i don't care whether you believe or not. No more than i care whether you believe the Sun revolves around the Earth.

[SevenStar]

I don't think the idea of semi-contact, or no contact sparring is really flawed, it's the execution of that sparring that is flawed. I've pretty much always done semi-contact sparring, occasionally more to the full contact side of things, but I'm still confident that even when sparring no contact, the techniques I use would work whene executed properly.

 

One of the major flaws is lack of sufficient contact. When you get hit hard, that combined with adrenaline rush causes you to forget whatever is not ingrained into your "muscle memory" that is why you see some trained martial artists revert to wild flailing in a street fight.

 

Why? Because I've always been taught that the goal of no contact sparring was to execute my techniques at full speed, with full power, but not actually strike the target.

 

In some ways, this is actually HARDER to do than full-contact fighting, because you are attempting to put everything you have into a technique, but stop just short of the actual blow.

 

that's fine and good, but not really applicable to real fighting, partially for the reason mentioned above.

 

Some would argue that practicing this way makes you ineffective, that you'd always stop short in a real fight. Again, I disagree. I still practice striking targets and heavy bags,and even boards with full power techniques. I know the difference between penetrating with a technique and stopping short.

 

I would argue that fact - I've seen it. here's a good way for you to see it. take someone from your school, possibly even yourself (if your school rarely goes full contact) and put them in the ring.

 

Even this can be prepared for to a degree, though. While I'm not out to create pain, you can simulate the effects of certain strikes or injuries. I've made my students try to fight while dizzy (make them soin around for awhile first), with only one arm or leg (simulating injury), or even while trying to hold their breath (strikes to the stomach or chest can cause the temporary inability to breathe).

 

I've done that too, but that is nowhere near the same. you can't simulate the adrenaline rush, the tunnel vision, etc. fighting with one arm won't simulate the actual pain. a guy I train with cracked a rib in a bjj match and still finished the match and won - you can't simulate that.

 

It's important that we train for different situations, and for the unexpected, but i don't agree that full contact is needed to prepare people for those situations, nor to make techniques effective.

 

see above. IMO, if a person trains MA and has NEVER done full contact, they are fooling themselves.

 

I don't see anything inherently worng with training full contact either, other than the possibility of sustaining more injuries, but if you don't see that as a distinct possibility when going into a full contact match, then I have to ask what you are thinking.

 

injuries happen - no big deal. that's something you accept when you begin training. In a real fight, injuries can be sustained also.