What's happened to the real meaning of the arts?

[Monkeymagic]

Has anyone seen the recent film by Tom Cruise: The Last Samurai? What did you think? I thought the idea was a bit silly but maybe the history is fairly close to the truth? The fighting scenes were great. Do you think the ancient meaning of martial arts have been lost by the west engulfing the east with all of it's ideas about how to live?

 

[Mart]

The original guy was british not american (dont get me started on this, that stupid american film about the enigma)and he was navy not army and gave the shogun guy the best ships, he was a ship builder.

 

Anyway, amongst other american manglings of history i thinkthis fairs better than some.

 

Regardsing western ideas engulfing the east.

 

I was recently in thailand and i can tell you our ideas are having ZERO impact there. But the girls are partial to the western clothing etc.

 

If you go there i think you will find they are ignoring the western ideas.

[Quest33]

I believe this film never professed to be a "historical account of an American" I do believe it accurately potrayed the Japanese culture though. It's a freeking STORY for goodness sake. Much like the English adopting the tale of King Author from French lore.

[Mart]

I know its only a film and i dont judge americans by this, just the film makers. They keep taking recent history and making it american. It annoys me that the film makers seem to think america is the only country on the planet.

[Drunken Monkey]

should point out that adopting a myth from another country (and you should remember that england has been invaded many, many timesso legends being adopted is not surprising) is in no way, anything like the way american film makers treat real historical events.

 

as mart pointed out, Enigma was a joke and does nothing except feed the popular idea that america won the war, totolly ignoring British and believe it or not, the French roles in the events.

 

anyway.

 

back to the thread....

 

the thing is, i have always seen martial arts as existing in their own little bubble that is very resistant to change.

 

it was almost like a little culture that has no real effect on the world and the world has no real effect on (until the development of firearms).

 

you could be a banker AND a martial arts student.

 

you could be a market stall holder AND a martial arts student.

 

you can be a computer programmer AND a martial arts student.

 

the learning of the arts hasn't changed (whereas the training has but that's a different thread...)

 

you can say that western culture hasn't changed the art

 

BUT

 

it has changed what people want from the art.

 

some wing chun schools teach you everything as they did in the past.

 

some wing chun schools teach you how to fight more efficiently, focussing on the more direct and leaving out the 'higher' levels of the art.

 

some wing chun schools have incorperated basic grappling into their teaching to offer more of a nhb feel to their training.

 

these different schools of teaching are all teaching wing chun and i'm pretty sure that the wing chun elements are all going to be the same.

 

the long and short of it is that nothing has changed.

 

the arts are still what they have always been.

 

in the film, what you seem to have failed to see is that the bad japanese guy, i forget the name, was only using the new culture as a way to gain power.

 

he saw it as a way to gain power without the need to do anything except wave money about.

 

he was afraid of the old ways because, according to the old ways, he had no real respect.

 

according to the old ways, he had no power.

 

the samurai had respect and had real power but they did not care for it.

 

that is the difference.

 

it isn't really a matter of culture's clashing, it is about the effects of short-sighted greed/lust for power.

 

there was no need to wipe out the samurai.

 

the two can co-exist but the greedy man didn't want anyone to be able to stand in his way.

 

i know i've wandered off a bit.

 

i'll have a think and write a little more when i've had time to focu my thoughts a bit.

 

i'm still hurting from last night...

[Fat Donkey]

Yeah the movie was alright but the history behind it was wrongo. The Japanese hired the British to train their Navy and the Germans to train their Army. As for the samurai they deserved to be wiped out. The samurai class kept Japan in a state of almost constant warfare for almost 600 years and only defended the country once and were saved from the mongols by a typhoon. They spent most of their history killing each other and the peasants. Most of the MA's that most of us study are ways for ordinary peasants to defend against these warrior classes. As for the "true meaning of MA's" MA's are a system of techniques used to defeat and enemy. All MA's adopt some philosophies of the culture behind it but I don't believe they form the core of the system. Most of us on this website are westerners and have a Judeo\Christian upbringing which doesn't prevent us from practicing or adding to our arts.

[Fat Donkey]

Yeah the movie was alright but the history behind it was wrongo. The Japanese hired the British to train their Navy and the Germans to train their Army. As for the samurai they deserved to be wiped out. The samurai class kept Japan in a state of almost constant warfare for almost 600 years and only defended the country once and were saved from the mongols by a typhoon. They spent most of their history killing each other and the peasants. Most of the MA's that most of us study are ways for ordinary peasants to defend against these warrior classes. As for the "true meaning of MA's" MA's are a system of techniques used to defeat and enemy. All MA's adopt some philosophies of the culture behind it but I don't believe they form the core of the system. Most of us on this website are westerners and have a Judeo\Christian upbringing which doesn't prevent us from practicing or adding to our arts.

[Fat Donkey]

Yeah the movie was alright but the history behind it was wrongo. The Japanese hired the British to train their Navy and the Germans to train their Army. As for the samurai they deserved to be wiped out. The samurai class kept Japan in a state of almost constant warfare for almost 600 years and only defended the country once and were saved from the mongols by a typhoon. They spent most of their history killing each other and the peasants. Most of the MA's that most of us study are ways for ordinary peasants to defend against these warrior classes. As for the "true meaning of MA's" MA's are a system of techniques used to defeat and enemy. All MA's adopt some philosophies of the culture behind it but I don't believe they form the core of the system. Most of us on this website are westerners and have a Judeo\Christian upbringing which doesn't prevent us from practicing or adding to our arts.

[Quest33]

Actually as I have given breif thought to this throughout the day I must admit I was a bit disturbed by the story line. Only in the sense that it was almost a copy of the movie Shogun. I did wonder why they so blatently altered the storyline. So yes I do agree. I don't watch much of the junk that comes out of Holywood but when I do I go with an expectation of that it is going to probably be far fetched. So that being said, I suppose that I could agree. I just can't stand unchecked American bashing, I mean get off of it already. I have absolutely heard enough of that crap to last me a lifetime. Every country has it's problems and every country has it's bad leaders. But that is another thread in a political forum.

 

It did leave me curious about the roots of martial arts. Each style has it's own history. They say that Kung Fu is the oldest?