The Final Say: GRAPPLING VS STRIKING

[BJJkenpoguy]

Good point's gumbi,

 

I prefer to be well rounded.

[KungFuLuvva]

i've studied some UFC tapes before, the problem that the good strikers have in there, is that the second they get clinched, they get scared and try to go for a headlock, or just grab some part of the body. the key is to just keep hitting. i've had a couple of wrestlers/grapplers try to fight be b4...when they go in for the kill, all they got was a nice axe eblow to the back of the head, and knees to ribs, i didnt go for any grabbing. wrestlers get a hold of a limb and work you in, very deadly once they get a hold of you, however, they cant control all 4 of you limbs at once, meaning you can always hit. thats pretty much the jist of wing chun defense of grapplers....they grab an arm, just kick in there knees and punch with your other arm, sounds simple but its so true, all about instant hits. now i know once sum1 gets a good grip on you, it can be hard to do that, but you can kind of look at that like a missed block, wut happens when you miss a block? you get punished. also wc punches work with just as much pwer when your flat on your back, do to the physics of it. so all in all. i'd have to say...if they can handle even one single good elbow or knee to head from me without being phazed, then they deserve to beat me, and i have no business fighting someone that invincible. but i would mayb put in a little grappling for a surprise tackle, i mean...u never know.

[siufeifei]

easy to say but showing you can do it is a different matter

[KungFuLuvva]

true true, it takes experiance, something i admit i dont have much of, so i'm sure i'd go down to very very experianced grapplers. but if someone like me, wihtout much experiance, can take seasoned wrestlers like that...someone wiht a good 5 years of WC should be able to handle most grappling scenerios. it might be easier said than done, but the idea that all 4 limbs cannot be controlled is still very true, like i said b4 tho, its all about that instant hit, if your a striker, keep hitting...how many elbows and knees can the guy take in a clinch? i dont think using grappling as your primary resort is worthwhile. like i said in another subject, grappling should be the absolute last resort weopon in your arsenal, its like comparing your M-16 to the knife hidden in your boot. if it gets to that extreme point, you never know when you may need it.

[KungFuLuvva]

Edit

[siufeifei]

I don't think he needs to control all four limbs. All he needs once you're on the ground is one to assert his control. Of course, you can still hit him with your free limbs but each time you attack and repeat your attack with them, you are presenting him with more chances to get control of one limb. That is not even mentioning the strengths of their guard positions. Don't forget that just because theirs is a grappling style that they don't know how to hit or get hit. Even both of you play a stand up game, you can't hit him without engaging his grappling distance. To hit him, you have to offer him a chance. This does not mean that he will not be hitting back.

 

I think that is a part that is always neglected in these discussion. The grappler will almost always know how to strike but the striker doesn't always know how to grapple. In most cases, the grappler is the more rounded fighter due to the way his working and training methods are practiced. What i mean is, it is not always about striking vs grappling but more about who is more rounded and more experienced and sometimes who is more lucky.

[SevenStar]

true true, it takes experiance, something i admit i dont have much of, so i'm sure i'd go down to very very experianced grapplers. but if someone like me, wihtout much experiance, can take seasoned wrestlers like that...someone wiht a good 5 years of WC should be able to handle most grappling scenerios. it might be easier said than done, but the idea that all 4 limbs cannot be controlled is still very true, like i said b4 tho, its all about that instant hit, if your a striker, keep hitting...how many elbows and knees can the guy take in a clinch? i dont think using grappling as your primary resort is worthwhile. like i said in another subject, grappling should be the absolute last resort weopon in your arsenal, its like comparing your M-16 to the knife hidden in your boot. if it gets to that extreme point, you never know when you may need it.

 

sticking with your example of the clinch, let's not forget that the clinch is used ALL THE TIME by wrestlers, judoka and bjj guys. How effective are your knees when I'm pressed against you smothering all space? how effective are knees and elbows when I am controlling your balance? since we are clinched, you are fighting in my domain. there are infinite throws and takedowns to do from there - you would likely get taken down before you could KO him.

 

as far as it being a primary resort, why not?

[KungFuLuvva]

siufeifei, you completely misunderstood me...once your on the ground of course he can assert control, i meant while the fight is still standing, theres not going to be a way to get an experianced WC on the ground without taking some substantial damage from elbows and knees.

 

"How effective are your knees when I'm pressed against you smothering all space? how effective are knees and elbows when I am controlling your balance? "

 

let's not forget that WC is the master of close distance, so theres going to be that moment when you enter my space, grab a part of my body, and your going to get punished with other parts of my body, now mind you i did say its all about the "instant hits" so yes...if i wait to long to hit or try to play your game by getting you into a headlock or grabbing you back, then i will be in your domain. But i can gaurantee that b4 you can assess full control, something really bad will happen to you, whether it be an axe elbow to the back of the head or a short distance centerline punch to crush your sternum, or if its necesarry thumbs in the eyes. i did that once in 8th grade when i hesisitated on hitting a grappler that had me pinned against a fence. his head loosened up slightly when he tried to back it away, so i slammed it on my knee. Mind you that he was twice my size and almost broke my hand in an arm wrestling match we had a few weeks before that. i was a very bad fighter back then and yet he was considered one the most powerful kids in my school and all he mostly did was wrestle against kids. With what i know now, i would laugh if someone tried to grab me, theres just many things i can do as long as i do it instantly. lets also not forget that even if you didnt want to hit him, hapkido moves are great for if someone lays there hands on you, but as is the same with those, if not performed instantly, the grapplers gets his chance to control you. personally i think an aikido master would make those big UFC grapplers look like clowns.

 

and as far as grappling being a primary resort...well, i just dont think you can bet your life on it. taking someone to the ground just has to many variables involved. For practicality purposes, imagine being in a brawl in the alley behind a bar, broken glass...ripped up concrete... you know what it looks like. Aside from that, why would you put yourself in the position where your so blind as to what's happening around you. What if you dont have the kind of time to work the guy in? you want to finish the fight as quickly as possible. What if police are comming and the other guy is to drunk to hear the sirens so you have keep working him in, and by that time...who cares who wins the fight?? you both lose. Also you may not realize this but running and fighting go together when your fighting multiple people. i know there just movies but when have you seen jackie chan run from a mob and then turn around to start wrestling people. its not just because it doesnt look flashy, its also because it doesnt work! there was this older guy in my class whose been there for a couple of years, he's a mall secrurity. 3 guys tried to rob a jewelery store after the mall closed down. he took all three of them, not because he was better than all 3 of them combined, but because he was better than them individually and was a smart fighter. you have to hit and run, its the only way. engage one or two with a few combos, then change direction, use your environment. i just dont understand why pple feel so comfortable that they're only going to have one on one fights their whole lives. if you want practical urban combat skills, grappling cannot be your primary ability. and no...not everyone carries a gun in cities...every loaded bullet found in the gun is another 7 years.

[Gumbi]

This is going to take a long time......

i've studied some UFC tapes before, the problem that the good strikers have in there, is that the second they get clinched, they get scared and try to go for a headlock, or just grab some part of the body. the key is to just keep hitting. i've had a couple of wrestlers/grapplers try to fight be b4...when they go in for the kill, all they got was a nice axe eblow to the back of the head, and knees to ribs, i didnt go for any grabbing.

 

First off, when you're in a clinch, its rather difficult to strike, hence the reason why boxers often do it when caught with a strong punch. Second, the three defenses to being taken down are your hands, followed by your elbows, followed by your hips. If you continue to punch and attack while in a clinch (without asserting control obviously, such as a thai clinch would) you'd be giving a grappler EXACTLY what he wants, which is control of your hips. Once close enough to get a grip, the entire fight is one of balance- you CAN NOT strike effectively if your feet are not rooted. Since a grappler will be putting you off balance, strikes will be much less effective than you would like them to be (certainly not effective enough to knock them out).

 

Elbows, knees, and headbutts are great tools in the clinch, but one requires experience in the clinch in order to utilize them, much the same that someone needs experience grappling before they wrestle for the state championships.

 

 

wrestlers get a hold of a limb and work you in, very deadly once they get a hold of you, however, they cant control all 4 of you limbs at once, meaning you can always hit. thats pretty much the jist of wing chun defense of grapplers....they grab an arm, just kick in there knees and punch with your other arm, sounds simple but its so true, all about instant hits.

 

Once again, if you attempt to attack while off balance, you'll be helping your grappling opponent by taking yourself down. As far as wrestlers only working one limb, well that depends on the style of the wrestler, but I'll tell you that if a good wrestler gets ahold of something as small as your ankle, you're not getting it back unless you're proficient in grappling.

also wc punches work with just as much pwer when your flat on your back, do to the physics of it.

 

Thats just pure ignorance- the ground prevents any type of effective chambering for punches when you're on your back. Anytime you want to trade punches with anyone when you're on your back, 10 out of 10 people will have no problem with it.

so all in all. i'd have to say...if they can handle even one single good elbow or knee to head from me without being phazed, then they deserve to beat me, and i have no business fighting someone that invincible. but i would mayb put in a little grappling for a surprise tackle, i mean...u never know.

 

Its much harder than that to knock someone out. Fighting goes well beyond one hit one kill. Dont forget, your opponent has an agenda too, even if its as simple as just throwing wildly at you.

[Gumbi]

siufeifei, you completely misunderstood me...once your on the ground of course he can assert control, i meant while the fight is still standing, theres not going to be a way to get an experianced WC on the ground without taking some substantial damage from elbows and knees.

 

Wheres that clip of Benneteau vs the Wing Chun guy

 

 

let's not forget that WC is the master of close distance

 

I didnt get that memo..... Since when is WC THE master of close in fighting? Wing Chun relies on trapping range, which is supposed to be just outside the clinch, but closer than a jab. A grappler will be much more experienced at clinch fighting than a striker, simply because he trains it MORE often. Much the same that a striker has better striking than a grappler..... (get the idea?). Nothing is better at grappling than grappling itself, and if I were to think of a striking art thats incredibly effective from the clinch, Muay Thai has had much more success than Wing Chun, and yes they can be taken down as well.

so theres going to be that moment when you enter my space, grab a part of my body, and your going to get punished with other parts of my body

 

Once again- off balanced= greatly decreased striking efficientcy.

But i can gaurantee that b4 you can assess full control, something really bad will happen to you, whether it be an axe elbow to the back of the head or a short distance centerline punch to crush your sternum, or if its necesarry thumbs in the eyes.

 

Thats a bold statement to make. Did you happen to see UFC 2 when Royce had his first fight against the karate fighter? He tried elbowing as well, but lacked even enough power to deter Royce the slightest bit from trying to assert control- he barely paid any attention to the elbows until he got him down and cross side.

 

A centerline punch that crushes someones sternum would be excellent, but you're missing MANY details. Punches dont always hit where you want them to- opponents arent always squared up like you want them to be. If you could do such a thing, you'd have to hit someone DEAD ON in order to do it, which is rather difficult to do in reality. Once again, by NOT

 

respecting the clinch, you'd become victim to it and easily taken down.

 

 

lets also not forget that even if you didnt want to hit him, hapkido moves are great for if someone lays there hands on you, but as is the same with those, if not performed instantly, the grapplers gets his chance to control you.

 

Against an experienced grappler? I dont think hapkido would do much in the grappling phase. I trained with a hapkido black belt when I had a few weeks of BJJ and he was just as lost in the clinch as anyone else not trained in grappling.

personally i think an aikido master would make those big UFC grapplers look like clowns.

 

I can appreciate the fact that you express your opinion while not outright saying "grappling sucks!" or anything of that nature, so I wont flame you for this statement.

 

You're 16, I was too, and I once thought that as well. Aikido is actually taught at my gym, and its highest ranking instructor is a 5th degree BB whos been doing it since he was a little kid (hes in his early 30s now). Words straight from his mouth "i really wish Aikido was more practical and effective, because I really enjoy doing it."

 

To his credit, him and his two other instructors are also black belts in Judo and purple belts in BJJ and are quite good at both. Aikido, however, simply isnt as effective as Judo, which is a popular grappling art.

and as far as grappling being a primary resort...well, i just dont think you can bet your life on it. taking someone to the ground just has to many variables involved. For practicality purposes, imagine being in a brawl in the alley behind a bar, broken glass...ripped up concrete... you know what it looks like.

 

I work at a bar and have had many fights end up on the ground outside of the bar. 100% of all injuries ranging from mild to severe have been caused by the other person/people in the fight and NOT the environment.

Aside from that, why would you put yourself in the position where your so blind as to what's happening around you.

 

Your range of vision in no way changes should you be on the ground. I can see just as much when Im mounted on you than if Im standing up squaring off with you.

 

You may actually be even more aware of your surroundings when grappling. For instance, a common position in BJJ is knee in the belly, which is exactly that and a good pinning position from on top of someone. From this position, Im free to look around at the surrounding area for any threats (your friends) and can pop back up to my feet if neccessary. What makes this better is that when i have you pinned like this, I no longer have to worry about you attacking me, as opposed to on our feet where I cant take my eyes off you for more than a second, or else I'll be caught off guard.

 

 

What if you dont have the kind of time to work the guy in?.

 

In the event a fight gets broken up, the 3rd party jumping in to break it up is your "self defense" because you're no longer in danger of being hurt

 

 

you want to finish the fight as quickly as possible.

 

Everyone wants to do this- EVERYONE So what if your opponent is bigger, stronger, and faster than you? He'll hit harder, quicker, and have the cardio to do it longer than you. You cant expect everything to go according to plan in a fight. I think it was Mike Tyson who said "everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth"

 

 

What if police are comming and the other guy is to drunk to hear the sirens so you have keep working him in, and by that time...who cares who wins the fight?? you both lose..

 

Was does it mean to win or lose? The idea of training for a fight to me means that someone is attacking me attempting to kill me. You seem to be thinking more about your ego. Besides, just because you're a grappler doesnt mean you cant punch. Nothing is going to do more damage than taking someone to the ground who doesnt know how to fight from there, and then unloading strikes on him.

 

Also you may not realize this but running and fighting go together when your fighting multiple people. i know there just movies but when have you seen jackie chan run from a mob and then turn around to start wrestling people. its not just because it doesnt look flashy, its also because it doesnt work! there was this older guy in my class whose been there for a couple of years, he's a mall secrurity. 3 guys tried to rob a jewelery store after the mall closed down. he took all three of them, not because he was better than all 3 of them combined, but because he was better than them individually and was a smart fighter. you have to hit and run, its the only way. engage one or two with a few combos, then change direction, use your environment. i just dont understand why pple feel so comfortable that they're only going to have one on one fights their whole lives. if you want practical urban combat skills, grappling cannot be your primary ability. and no...not everyone carries a gun in cities...every loaded bullet found in the gun is another 7 years.

 

Sounds great in theory, the idea of hitting and running, but harder in practice. When fighting multiple opponents, thats not a fight- thats called getting jumped. They come in high and low and from all directions. If people are unable to avoid going to the ground when fighting one opponent, what are the odds of doing the same when fighting two? The idea of stick and move is not unique to fighting multiple opponents- that was the idea when fighting grapplers as well in MMA competitions. Your best bet is to run, and should a grappler get taken to the ground, hes got the tools to get back to his feet and keep running (or fighting). Can you say the same about a striker?