The Final Say: GRAPPLING VS STRIKING

[KungFuLuvva]

"First off, when you're in a clinch, its rather difficult to strike"

 

ok ok...you based most of your entire argument off of this...and wow, if you read just a little bit closer, you wouldnt have had to waste so much breath(typing).

 

"now mind you i did say its all about the "instant hits" so yes...if i wait to long to hit or try to play your game by getting you into a headlock or grabbing you back, then i will be in your domain."

 

i dont know if you misunderstood this or just completely missed it, but it would have saved you about a page of typing there. I dont know how else to say it, maybe you would understand it better if i said, once a grappler enters my trapping range...or hit the very instant of clinching, i.e. (someone grabbing my arm, or lunging, shooting for your comfort zone, however you want to put it). Now i know it takes a good amount of experiance to get a feel for ranges, but dont tell me its easier said than done because as an inexperianced fighter, i've been successful on more than one occasion against very vicous wrestlers.

 

"Fighting goes well beyond one hit one kill."

 

I've never relied on one hit kills in my life and anyone who does is very naiive. The instant hits i have been talking about are to loosen up the grapplers resolve, then to of course follow up with combos. What i meant was that if someone can take just one hit like that with being detered in the least, then i have no business fighting someone like that, it would be a very very obvious mismatch of power. The way i look at it...a one hit ko would be nice, but i'd never stop to find out if it happend for me or not.

 

"Thats just pure ignorance- the ground prevents any type of effective chambering for punches when you're on your back. Anytime you want to trade punches with anyone when you're on your back, 10 out of 10 people will have no problem with it."

 

It's something we call elbow energy, it would be very tedious to explain, nor i do have the full capability to put it in words(that would the kind of paper to get your doctra's degree), so just take my word for it that no shoulder is used in our punches. a WC practitioner with a very well developed punch should be able to break a board while lying flat on his/her back. Something that comes to mind...i know its just a stupid movie...but Kill Bill 2. When Uma is trapped in the coffin she demonstrates my idea. Have you ever seen a 1 inch punch? having grounding does give you more power, but with out the theory of elbow energy, WC 1 inch punches would be physically impossible. I KNOW THAT a fighter on top has a significant advantage when trading blows, i was just giving something to think about, not something i would be counting on in taht situation.

 

"Wheres that clip of Benneteau vs the Wing Chun guy"

 

I already addressed that in another thread, so i'll reitterate.

 

"Btw, about the UFC, i've seen the supposed "Wing Chun" people....but if they didnt tell me that i would've never even guessed. they had there backs slunched over, low sloppy gaurds, and fought like any other UFC monkey. I didnt see one single WC charactoristic, not even the stances were recognizable. UFC MMA's are a breed of there own, its a lie if they tell you someone from a legit kung fu style is fighting. It's just a commercial ploy to earn more false reputation. i have a clip downloaded of a "Wing Chun" person fighting in UFC, he was so bulky that he couldnt even move, not one single WC movement in the whole fight. Real GM's of kung fu styles will not go into leagues like UFC because the moves are to dangerous and easily do permanent damage. That's why there's no Wing Chun tournaments, its a deadly art made to kill, not for sporting on tv. theres a big difference.

 

"Against an experienced grappler? I dont think hapkido would do much in the grappling phase."

 

Once again, i said this, "if not performed instantly, the grapplers gets his chance to control you. " What makes you think being good at grappling helps against hapkido joint locks? They were designed for the instant someone lays there hands on you, not for grappling. I'd say not all of them are completely street effective, but many of them are very pratical. I learned a few good ones a couple of weeks ago, and i've been thinking about them alot, replaying it in my head and such. a couple of days ago i was messing around with one of my friends and he grabbed my collar very hard, so i pulled an armbar move very quickly, and he ended up sitting down on his knees. i've seen others use similar joint locks very effectively against people trying to go in for teh grapple. its all a matter of experiance and reflex. if a hkd practitioner is fast enough to get off the reflexive joint lock, how will you grapple if your down on your knees praying he wont snap your elbow an wrist?

 

"I can appreciate the fact that you express your opinion while not outright saying "grappling sucks!" "

 

Believe it or not, the thought never crossed my mind. grappling is just something thats there, it exists, and it happens. i take it for what its worth, and i wouldnt hate it anymore than something that occured naturally such as rainstorms. i just dont believe in the mentality of it being a primary method of self defense.

 

"In the event a fight gets broken up, the 3rd party jumping in to break it up is your "self defense" because you're no longer in danger of being hurt "

 

and if that party is there to hurt you....uh oh...looks like the spider has been entangled within its own web...

 

 

 

"You seem to be thinking more about your ego."

 

Naw...more along the lines of not getting arrested. you want to remain mobile if you can help it. i dont know how u came up with the ego thing.

 

"Sounds great in theory, the idea of hitting and running, but harder in practice. "

 

of course its harder, but if a 55 year old renta cop with only 2-3 years of WC experiance can do it...well...i'd say it can be done. and aside from the whole running thing, i once read an old australian newspaper article about a WC practitioner locked in a cabin room with 12 angry sailors, and managed to defeat them. i dont know how reliable australian newspapers were at that time, but if i ever find that article i'll try to post it.

 

"Muay Thai has had much more success than Wing Chun, and yes they can be taken down as well. "

 

Says who?? UFC?? but yes, in those clinch situations as you mentioned, i'd give muay thai equal chance because they put a substantial amount of effort into elbows and knees.

 

oh btw i really appreciate that comment about my age your teh first in this forum to mention it, i really gotta find out how to change my profile, cant seem do it for some reason. but anways...i learned to disassociate age with experiance when i got my * handed to me by a 10 year old in a chess tournament. and i'm one of the top 4 players in my highskewl of over 5000 kids. the couple above me are almost pro, they've been to other countries and states for tournaments. but anways, i wouldnt rule out aikido so quickly, NO MATTER WHAT one person has told you. there ARE different variations of the art, some more combat orientated than others. i have a few well developed aikido friends who go to more combat suited classes. i think they would beg to differ with your theory of aikido being an inferior art. in my opinion, judo is OK... i like some of there tosses, but whatever tosses they have, aikido will have more for different situations. again, it depends on the variation and school.

Edited January 21, 2005 by KungFuLuvva

[KungFuLuvva]

edit

Edited January 21, 2005 by KungFuLuvva

[KungFuLuvva]

edit

Edited January 21, 2005 by KungFuLuvva

[KungFuLuvva]

edit

[SevenStar]

just talked to a WC friend of mine. you do use the shoulder you punch. you use your lats to anchor it down, but you do use it. you don't rotate it out like a boxer does because it will mess up the squareness of the torso, which you are trying to maintain.

 

Anyway, muay thai generally has a higher success rate because of its training methods. it's not inherently a better style - There is no best style - but there are better training methods, in thai boxers follow them. on average, from what I've experienced, WC does not.

 

if you were able to throw one punch that stopped the wrestler from taking you down, I question how "vicious" they are. I help one of our guys get ready for his most recent mma fight and one of the drills we did was that he could only use takedowns and I could only use strikes. It's HARD to prevent the takedown of a guy who really wants to put you on the ground. I was able to stop him on a few occasions, but more often than not, he got me down. I think that is part of the main point in discussions like these. Many people don't realize just how easy it is to get taken down.

[Gumbi]

 

i've been successful on more than one occasion against very vicous wrestlers.

 

As sevenstar said, I really question the viciousness of these wrestlers if they're getting defeated by one hit. The simple fact is when a wrestler shoots in on you, his base is low enough that its very difficult to strike a knock out blow (i.e. hit the chin) with anything except a knee. Not to mention the fact that even if you hit him with a punch, thats not going to kill the momentum hes built up. Cro Cop cant do it- I seriously doubt you could

 

It's something we call elbow energy, it would be very tedious to explain, nor i do have the full capability to put it in words(that would the kind of paper to get your doctra's degree), so just take my word for it that no shoulder is used in our punches. a WC practitioner with a very well developed punch should be able to break a board while lying flat on his/her back.I KNOW THAT a fighter on top has a significant advantage when trading blows, i was just giving something to think about, not something i would be counting on in taht situation.

 

You can always strike or try to strike from the bottom, and even assuming that you can punch MUCH harder than an average guy from his back, it still wont change the fact that you wont be punching with anywhere near the power or momentum of the person on top of you. Strikes from underneath in the guard usually work well for deterrants and setups as opposed to being an offensive weapon by themselves (unless they're kicking)

 

 

 

" Real GM's of kung fu styles will not go into leagues like UFC because the moves are to dangerous and easily do permanent damage. That's why there's no Wing Chun tournaments, its a deadly art made to kill, not for sporting on tv. theres a big difference.

 

Please dont start with the "too deadly for the ring" argument. Ive trained in Kung Fu myself, and switched to BJJ for a very logical reason. MMA tournaments (there were MANY MANY others besides UFC- UFC just happened to be the most popular in the US) had little to no rules when they were first initiated. This means that all death touches, pressure points, and otherwise deadly moves were allowed. The only exceptions were eye gouging and biting for obvious reasons, but even these rules were sometimes ignored. If Kung Fu (or any style/ fighter) is unable to win when abiding by only two rules then I think that shows a rather limited and close minded approach to combat. These restrictions hindered grapplers as well, since one can easily eye gouge and bite from a position such as the mounted one instead of waiting for an armbar or your opponent to turn and give his back.

 

 

 

Once again, i said this, "if not performed instantly, the grapplers gets his chance to control you. " What makes you think being good at grappling helps against hapkido joint locks? They were designed for the instant someone lays there hands on you, not for grappling.

 

You realize that what you just explained is a grappling situation correct? Hapkido's joint locks ARE grappling. And what makes me think that being good at grappling helps against Hapkido joint locks?

 

1: 2 of my old friends are well educated in Hapkido, one a black belt in it- he knew even less than I did when I sparred him with 1 week of BJJ under my belt, and it showed. Im not trying to trash anyone who does Hapkido, Im merely pointing out that its grappling techniques are clearly not as advanced as other grappling arts (much the same as you would say that wrestling doesnt have as good a strikes as karate does)

 

2: Joint locks are grappling techniques, no matter how you slice it. The fact that submission fighters are constantly practicing these techniques in every way shape and form means that you're not going catch them by surprise should you attempt them.

 

 

i was messing around with one of my friends and he grabbed my collar very hard, so i pulled an armbar move very quickly, and he ended up sitting down on his knees. i've seen others use similar joint locks very effectively against people trying to go in for teh grapple. its all a matter of experiance and reflex. if a hkd practitioner is fast enough to get off the reflexive joint lock, how will you grapple if your down on your knees praying he wont snap your elbow an wrist?

 

So what level of expertise does you friend have in grappling? How will I grapple when he starts to go for a reflexive joint lock? I dont have to go far- we ALREADY ARE. Wristlocks are allowed in BJJ tournaments too you know. You're also dismissing the idea of pain tolerance as well, not to mention the different reactions you'll get from people.

 

Some people have very flexible wrists and ankles, so joint locks to these areas can prove much more difficult than on the average person. Small joint manipulation isnt a great thing to rely on for a fight when adrenaline is surging through someones system- there are many grappling tournaments in which people are caught in wristlocks and ankle locks, yet they let the limb break and keep fighting.

 

 

"In the event a fight gets broken up, the 3rd party jumping in to break it up is your "self defense" because you're no longer in danger of being hurt "

 

and if that party is there to hurt you....uh oh...looks like the spider has been entangled within its own web...

 

If that party is there to hurt you, then you're being jumped- its no longer a one on one fight, and striking has proved no more effective at fighting multiple opponents than grappling has.

 

"You seem to be thinking more about your ego."

 

Naw...more along the lines of not getting arrested. you want to remain mobile if you can help it. i dont know how u came up with the ego thing.

 

You were talking about "winning" a fight- determining the victor of it by whoever got the most punches in, or whoever appeared to be dominant. Thats fighting for your ego. If fights were determined like that, half the submission fighters in MMA technically "lost" most of the fights they won by submission.

 

 

of course its harder, but if a 55 year old renta cop with only 2-3 years of WC experiance can do it...well...i'd say it can be done. and aside from the whole running thing, i once read an old australian newspaper article about a WC practitioner locked in a cabin room with 12 angry sailors, and managed to defeat them. i dont know how reliable australian newspapers were at that time, but if i ever find that article i'll try to post it.

 

Yeah, I've seen articles too- a recent one where a Kung Fu stylist defeated 6 people who attempted to mug him. Upon further insight though, there were no witnesses, and the ENTIRE article was based on his

 

story alone- because it appeared in the papers, people just assumed it was true, or that it actually happened that way. Thats all you EVER hear is stories of how to fight off multiple attackers-the evidence is severely lacking and no one is ever willing to put their ideas to the test when challenged.

" Muay Thai has had much more success than Wing Chun, and yes they can be taken down as well. "

 

Says who?? UFC?? but yes, in those clinch situations as you mentioned, i'd give muay thai equal chance because they put a substantial amount of effort into elbows and knees.

 

 

And we're back to the whole "UFC fighters cant fight" argument. There NEVER was ANY restrictions as to the styles fighters could use in mixed martial arts tournaments (not just UFC). Muay Thai is much more ring proven than Wing Chun, or any other Kung Fu for that matter, and thats due directly to their training methods. I can instantly find numerous recorded accounts attesting to the effectiveness of Muay Thai- can you do the same?

 

 

"

 

oh btw i really appreciate that comment about my age your teh first in this forum to mention it, i really gotta find out how to change my profile, cant seem do it for some reason. but anways...i learned to disassociate age with experiance when i got my * handed to me by a 10 year old in a chess tournament.

 

Chess isnt exactly a contact sport you know? As far as commenting on your age, that wasnt an insult, I was simply stating the obvious. You're simply too young to have the experience that many other people have. I seriously did think that Kung Fu was amazing when I was 16 too, but its amazing how much your opinion changes after a little more experience.

 

 

"

 

but anways, i wouldnt rule out aikido so quickly, NO MATTER WHAT one person has told you. there ARE different variations of the art, some more combat orientated than others. i have a few well developed aikido friends who go to more combat suited classes. i think they would beg to differ with your theory of aikido being an inferior art. in my opinion, judo is OK... i like some of there tosses, but whatever tosses they have, aikido will have more for different situations. again, it depends on the variation and school.

 

I wouldnt say Im ruling Aikido out, but I am saying that it will NEVER compare to Judo or Jiu Jitsu (which would be its closest relatives). Im not basing my statement solely on his opinion either, but also by my experiences. Beyond that, the opinion of a guy who's father was an instructor, whos been training in it for almost 30 years, and who is a 5th degree black belt in it, goes a long way- who to better know the shortcomings of it that someone who's studied it inside out and crosstrained in other styles?

[SevenStar]

gumbi is very correct.

[ovine king]

....let's not forget that we see many people take serious multiple blows to the head and carry on fighting/moving.

 

a single instant hit, no matter how grounded you are, isn't really going to stop them from taking you down.

 

all of the wing chun guys i know defend against a take down by essentially sprawling or by taking a backstep into a deeper longer stance whilst trying to divert the rush in (or get out of the direct straight line of the rush).

 

not many advocate trying to stand their ground and 'fighting'.