Kyokushin vs Other Karate Styles. Cold Hard Facts!!!!!

[MasterPain]

Just wanted to *bump* this to say - Three letters...

G...S...P

I will agree with you that George St. Pierre is an amazing athlete and an amazing martial artist, his techniques have been geared towards a sports competition. Due to this he is focusing on certain techniques that may not be totally advisable in a combative situation i.e. a double leg takedown if your are not a law enforcement officer. Therefore im not sure that GSP should be involved in the discussion of the combative effectivness of an art. Just my opinion

Because GSP suddenly becomes an incompetent fighter when you're allowed to kick him in the groin or gouge his eyes...

There are groin strikes and eye gouges in all fighting styles. BJJ, muay thai, judo- they've all got their "deadly" techniques. The difference between these sport styles and other "combat" styles is that the sport ones have shown their versatility. They dont have to rely on a particular technique or set of rules. They've proven to be able to adapt to numerous situations, which is of far greater benefit for combat effectiveness than relying on an eye gouge or groin strike. If you're style relies too heavily on one thing (i.e. if I can kick to the groin I cant win a fight) then you're not going to have much success with it.

Interesting you bring up a law enforcement officer- a double leg takedown is one of the best things they could learn. They have to take someone down most of the time to restrain them and arrest them. If you dont know how to sprawl, double leg takedown works easy. Once on the ground on your back, if you dont know jiu jitsu you're in trouble.

I know plenty of people in law enforcement- grappling is the best thing they can learn. Sprawls save lives, and double leg takedowns work exceptionally well when someone doesnt want to be arrested.

DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWN IF YOU ARE NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER is what he said i.e. it is not a good idea unless there is a reason to stay and control the situation. Law enforcement has an obligation to stay and control the situation. We would not advise a LEO to use eye gouges except as an absolute last resort. They have very specific levels of escalation and will be held accountable. Also there is a can of mace and a gun on their hip that most of us do not have. Also most of us are not world-class professional athletes and can't fight for 25 minutes straight.

Also funny is that our art includes BJJ, Muay Thai, and Judo. We also train the "deadly" parts. Point is, the rules of MMA influence what is trained. Our philosophy is to train good MMA as well as things that are illegal. I included a video of some good stuff from Pride that is illegal in the UFC. If you can honestly say that you think the rules wouldn't make a difference, fine. OK. If you instead decide that our school spends 10 hours a week practicing the Garvin Stomp, I will not bother with further response.

Here are some "deadly" "combat" stomps.

[Groinstrike]

Could we also get a video of the "Garvin Stomp"!!!

[MasterPain]

Could we also get a video of the "Garvin Stomp"!!!

Here it is complete with some elbow dropping goodness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9AKCdG9VvM

[MMA_Jim]

DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWN IF YOU ARE NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER is what he said i.e. it is not a good idea unless there is a reason to stay and control the situation. Law enforcement has an obligation to stay and control the situation. We would not advise a LEO to use eye gouges except as an absolute last resort. They have very specific levels of escalation and will be held accountable. Also there is a can of mace and a gun on their hip that most of us do not have. Also most of us are not world-class professional athletes and can't fight for 25 minutes straight.

Yeah, I misread that part. As far as people not being able to fight for 25 minutes, interesting you bring that up.

Because people are not in good shape and because people are not knowledgeable of grappling unless taught, your regular person is going to gas themselves out in about 20 seconds- they may last 30 or 40 if they're in really good shape. A regular hobby practicing grappler can handle that no problem, so after about 20 second a choke sinks in easy as can be (and this is worst case scenario- it usually takes about 5 seconds to lock in a choke).

The reason why pro fighters fight for so long isnt because they're deliberately drawing the fight out, but rather because their opponents are so well trained, its very difficult if not impossible to "end the fight quickly."

Also funny is that our art includes BJJ, Muay Thai, and Judo. We also train the "deadly" parts. Point is, the rules of MMA influence what is trained. Our philosophy is to train good MMA as well as things that are illegal. I included a video of some good stuff from Pride that is illegal in the UFC. If you can honestly say that you think the rules wouldn't make a difference, fine. OK. If you instead decide that our school spends 10 hours a week practicing the Garvin Stomp, I will not bother with further response.

Here are some "deadly" "combat" stomps.

First off, you're trying to convince me of something against MMA by showing me a highlight of.... mma

Second, a stomp doesnt need to be practiced. You're missing the point of the argument. Suppose you practice and perfect the ability to stomp a downed opponent- how much will that help you when you have to fight a skilled person?

Not that much. Mostly because if you dont have the means to put yourself there, you'll never be in a position to use it. Wanderlei Silva was someone who was reknown for stomping people in the head. What put him in this position so much was his muay thai skills. Most of the people he stomped were already on their way out- he dropped them with strikes on the feet and they were too dazed to defend when they dropped to the ground.

Also, the majority of people you're seeing getting stomped are those that are less knowledgable of the ground game. Jiu jitsu guys are reknown for their preference to fight in Japan, mostly because they'll actually give them time to work on the ground. How often do you see a jiu jitsu guy on his back with another guy on top whos hesitant to engage? Thats because if you try to stomp someone who's got some grappling skills, you stand a significant chance of getting caught in a footlock or a sweep. Not saying that it cant be done, but again you see guys back away from people that are on their backs for a reason.

Now do the rules change things? Of course they do. Elbows allow alot of people in UFC to go for cut stoppages and boring G&P that doesnt do anything to threaten the person on bottom, but just opens up their face just enough to stop the fight. Stomping a downed opponent- yeah I'd like to see that one legal in the states too, but thats something that tends to work against those who arent good grapplers rather than the other way around.

Theres a saying that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, and in the world of martial arts this is no exception. The most entertaining form of fighting I've ever heard of was "thug-jitsu." What you end up with is a bunch of people who train in bjj just long enough to get their blue belts, and then they think they know the ins and outs of the ground game. Then they try to make changes and "develop their own system" when they barely know the basics of the ground game.

If something were grossly effective I would be training in it. Why dont I train eye gouges, groin shots, and biting? Well mostly because the delivery system and not the technique is the deciding factor. I can eye gouge much better than someone who's been practicing it for 20 years, because my grappling skills will put me in a position to allow me to do pretty much whatever I want.

[MasterPain]

First off, you're trying to convince me of something against MMA by showing me a highlight of.... mma

Second, a stomp doesnt need to be practiced.

First the major issue, neither GS nor I have said anything against MMA. We are fans of the sport and practice it. I've fought a couple times. We both train for the purpose of self defense skill as well as a hobby. MMA has a great tool bag for self defense. Not everything that's a good idea in the cage is a good idea for EVERY self defense situation, but it's all good for some. There are times when a takedown and control are the best option. Other times footwork, striking and escape are best. Escape in the cage does not exist. In self defense it is a win. But the skill set learned for cage fighting will enable escape. The training methodology for MMA is also great for learning weapons, going from compliant drills to adding resistance to use in sparring. We are not the types who think MMA is junk, it's a huge part of what we do.

The minor issue is in training philosophy here. I think that to be good at kicking downed opponents, you need to practice it. I think people who spar with the groin as a target are more adept at landing it. A person can be a great martial artist without practicing those things, and it's just a small portion of training for those who do.

[Nanashii]

In my experience, the better martial artist lives. Art and style are preference, and if someone knows how to use the skills they've been taught better than their opponent, they will be the one that 'wins.' Every style has it's benefits and drawbacks, and every martial artist likewise. It's knowing how to use your skills that makes you effective, not necessarily which skills they are or how they compare in a training perspective to another art's skills.

I never understood the 'this style is more effective than that style' mentality. If you take the style you believe to be most effective and give it to someone who never learns how to use its teachings, what good is it? The same can be said for a style you might think isn't as good. The martial artist and their sensei determine the effectiveness of the teachings, not the name of the banner above it.

That aside, and I know this is late in the thread here - forgive me - suggesting that a certain style has more intense warm ups or bodily conditioning is too blanket a statement. My dojo spends a lot of time on conditioning and body toughening, balanced with kata, ippon/sanbon kumite, jyu kumite, and stance work through static training, though we're not Kyokoushin. Something like that hinges heavily on the sensei and the sempai that instruct and how they were taught/what they want to improve or accomplish. There are so many ways to train that can all produce amazing results, I just think it's silly to suggest that one way is better or worse as a blanket statement.

That's how I've discovered it, anyway.

[CLEANS-HIGH]

I have not studied KK but have heard about it but I do study MT and have Studied Poekoelan Tjminde and Tang Soo do and MT seems to have the

most physical training incorporated into the classes, the Poekoelan has

hard sparring and does do foot sweeps but It is how you train that makes the difference and many styles teach self defense which is their main focus

as opposed to fighting. I think you could adapt all if you adjust the training

[brickshooter]

One thing that MMAjim brought up that was kind of funny was that the average person will gas out in about 30 seconds on the ground. From numerous you tube videos on real fights, I also noticed that the average person will gas out after 30 seconds of swinging while on their feet.

So 30 seconds seems like the average amount of time a non-trained person will last before they become nearly self-incapicated.

Puts an interesting viewpoint on the term "defense" in self-defense.

[Throwdown0850]

Let's be honest folks. I appreciate all the replies to this subject, but I am getting nothing more than opinions in favor of the style that the reply-e practices.

Kyokushin is a Fighting Art more than a Martial Art, and to those who understand the difference the following will be easy to follow.

I have trained in other styles of Karate in the past just to get a feel for the other variations that are out there, and to better understand them from experience and not from a Forum conversation. These include Shotokan, Kenpo, Shindenkan, and Goju.

I will be the first to admit that all of the forementioned styles I gained respect for. They all had similar Kata, had similar if not identical kicks, punches, throws, sweeps etc. The one thing that seperated us from them was not what we trained in, rather how we trained. Kyokushin emphasizes (overly sometimes) a harsh training regimen that consists of primarily hard basics for warm ups, hard full speed drills, severe emphasis on technique and the physics behind them, full contact sparring at low speed for technique and high speed for ring experience, body conditioning for impact absorbtion, Sanchin for endurance and mental toughness and Kata. At no time are pads of any kind allowed for multiple reasons. Punching (both closed fist and open hand to the face and body) kicking, and throwing are the focal points!! Yet, we do in fact train in multiple grappling and manipulation aspects. While they are not the STRONG POINTS of Kyokushin, they ARE part of the training and have been so long as I know of. YES we do use elbows, knees and just about anything that can be projected from the body. Kyokushin does allow any and all kicks and knees to the head, as well as any desired hand or leg technique to the body. The point of a Kyokushin match is to quickly, effectively, and unquestionably knock out the opponent. Not to score points and go on for rounds. Having explained a bit about the "Art" of Kyokushin I can now tell you why it differs from "Traditional" Karate. Most other systems (with the exception of MT and Goju) train for sport and do not for the most part require a strict and harsh training regimen. Most sytems tend to teach for the art and preach the importance of not having to use force to deal with force. I spent many months training with these systems learning their techniques and although I got to understand many techniques in depth, we were not allowed to put them to use. We were just "told" that they would work. I think most of you will agree thatin order to know what works for an individual, you must learn, practice, and put to practical use each and every technique to better understand what works for you. No 2 people can assume that they can both use a technique effectively and in the same situation seeing that they are both different and will react differently. I really did appreciate what I learned from these other guys and I respect them tremendously.

That being said, I also learned that I prefer the reality and harshness that only in Kyokushin I have found. Kyokushin means "Ultimate Truth" and that is what we strive for. No, we are not allowed to punch to the head in a bout, but then again I think most are thankful for that fact. If we are devestating without the hand strikes to the head, it is only better that we don't cross into that realm. Well, in the dojo atleast. Do we have a better understanding now? It is, what it is.

Think about what happens if Kyokushin fighters are allowed to fight MT guys under their rules, but without the gloves. We don't use gloves because we don't head hunt. If they take off the gloves and fight by our rules and we are allowed to strike the head as they did in the days of Oyama in Japan and Korea, there is no competition. 5 Kyokushin top fighters vs 5 MT top fighters and the result was KK4 MT1. Then again the rules have changed. Gee, how convenient. I respect all styles, but lean towards those in our realm. The Fighting Arts!! I just don't like seeing true Martial Artist beeing mislead by your run of the mill corner dojo that just wants to claim a stake in their city's black belt production line. You know what I mean. Now, Any Comments folks?

By the way, My true respect to the following arts as they have so much to offer for their students in my experience and in that of many around me....

MT

Goju

Wing Chun

Brazilian JuJitsu

Sambo

Shindenkan

Shotokan

Chinese Kenpo

Strong Tiger Kung Fu

In the title it says "cold hard facts". I see zero in your post. I see an opinion. I like Kyokushin for what it is, a combat sport, and I can see why it would be appealing, its "hardcore" full contact. Being said many times by many people I believe its all how you train. someone can bring up a vid of kyokushin vs TKD or Kyokushin vs MT vid showin KK being the victor. and someone else can bring up a vid of MT vs KK and MT being the winner. Its like running on a treadmill.

[Dobbersky]

Awesome thread!!!

There has been a lot of opinions on this thread by some really experienced Martial Artists but what I must add is that comparing Kyokushin to other styles is like comparing an apple with an orange.

JKA WKF etc type of Kumite is nothing like knock-down. I had several "point-scorers come to my dojo, to spar "knock-down stylee" (one was a world finalist and got more trophies than you could shake a stick at) but he a 4th Dan got Outclassed by 3rd to 2nd Kyu brown belts in the type of sparring we do (I am popping to his dojo to try his type of sparring and I am expecting to be outclassed there too)

I was also sad that Ashihara was not mentioned by the threaders (Semmy Schilt K-1 World Champ) is an Ashihara Karateka.

Note, the KK4 to MT1 was between Japan and Thailand

Now I can't speak about Kyokushin but Ashihara and Enshin Karate work so much on kata application.

The kumite is Full Contact Knock-down with grabs allowed as well as Kyokushin rules.

Also, I trained in Muay Thai before I took Ashihara and there is no difference in the levels of training and determination of the fighters. I would not say one is better than the other as there are only good fighters.

With regards to Stamina, I have only ever heard of 4 styles of Martial arts that do 50- 100- 200- or 300-man kumite, them being Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin and Kempo Karate.

Osu

Anonymous One, is the style you study similar to "Shotokai" as I was tols after Funakoshi Sensei passed his Karate only split into "Shotokan" and "Shotokai" but no mention of Chibakai (sorry can't recall the name of the school)