Kenpo Application/Training

[TheDevilAside]

1.Butting with the head.

 

2. Eye gouging of any kind.

 

3. Biting.

 

4. Hair pulling.

 

5. Fish hooking.

 

6. Groin attacks of any kind.

 

7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.

 

8. Small joint manipulation.

 

9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.

 

10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.

 

11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.

 

12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.

 

13. Grabbing the clavicle.

 

14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.

 

15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.

 

16. Stomping a grounded opponent.

 

17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

 

18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.

 

19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.

 

20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.

 

21. Spitting at an opponent.

 

22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.

 

23. Holding the ropes or the fence.

 

24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.

 

Those rules don't apply for a fight in a school, bar or mall. But those are the kinds of fights that we train for.

 

#6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 19 (could be off a flight of steps, bushes, etc.), 20, 24 (taunting works miracles) are especially good methods to end a street fight quickly and we do train to do these things.

[Drunken Monkey]

what you see in an event fight, be it ufc/nhb/K1 or whatever are techniques (forget about the style they're from, after all bjj isn't the only style with an armbar...) working in isolation against one person.

 

while it is a good judge of the technique, it isn't that good a judge of the styles that do or do not participate.

 

for a start, the guys who participate in those fights train for those fights.

 

they train in the moves that work for those sorts of fights.

 

hell, just watch any of the fights that i'm pretty sure you have on video somewhere and see how many moves from their entire repertoire that they actually use.

 

i will say that if you want to win one of those events, then you don't even really need to learn all of bjj, just the moves that are sucessful and, more importantly, what to do against the moves that you see a lot of.

 

and just think of what you are implying (just cos you don't type the words doesn't mean you aren't implying it...)

 

are you really saying that judo doesn't work?

 

that wing chun doesn't work?

 

that aikido doesn't work?

 

that karate doesn't work?

 

that kempo (of any sort) doesn't work?

 

just because you don't see them win in one of those fights?

 

the obvious counterpoint to that would be to ask you to look through all of the news reports where martial arts have been involved.

 

how many of them have been about karateka defending themseves.

 

and how many have been about bjj, muay thai, what-ever defending themselves?

 

the karate person can easily take that stand-point and argue that karate works better on real streets because there are more reports of it doing so.

 

hell, let's go back to what has been said in this thread.

 

where did delta say that kempo was a kick-* style?

 

i was under the impression that he was just trying to explain the kempo learning process....

 

somehow you needed to well, for lack of a better term, disrespect his style because he shares his training/learning method?

 

there's been too much of that lately.

 

the media already misrepresents us.

 

the layman misunderstands us.

 

and yet there are still people who are actually part of the martial arts world that seek to belittle all others in the name of their style.

 

that's all i've been hearing/reading/seeing lately.

 

my style is better than yours.

 

your style doesn't work.

 

your teacher is rubbish.

 

you aren't learning realistcally.

 

it all boils down to one thing.

 

wanting to be better than someone else.

 

does it matter if your stye beat mine in a fight between two professionals?

 

does it mean you can beat me?

 

does it matter if you can beat me?

 

do you think that if we were to fight, you'd get away without incurring injuries to yourself?

 

for some reason, there is a belief that if you train in a particular style you are going to be invincible.

 

i've said this before.

 

a punch in the face is the same no matter what style you train.

 

an arm break is an arm break.

 

a kick is a kick.

 

it doesn't matter that they look different to each other, that's just because their underlying method is different, the resulting effect is the same.

 

if you think that stand up styles don't deal with grappling then you are mistaken.

 

just like if you think a grappler has no stand up abilities.

 

it's almost as stupid as thinking that the tkd guy who has decided to try his luck in a kick-boxing fight hasn't been working his punches...

[delta1]

...how come we dont see these sort of techniques in MMA. I mean I've seen lots of bear hugs and rear standing chokes but nothing resembling your video....

 

You are still locked into the base technique, so we'll deal with that first: Because it's sport. Given the level of intensity, and the possibility of things going wrong and the guy falling onto your hyperextended knee, would you want this applied in the ring?

 

Now, step outside the box you're trying to keep us all in, and you have seen it in limmited rules sporting fights. Go back, reread my posts, and look where I talk about droping back to take some of his control in a throw. That is one of the things this technique teaches, if you take it to the level of understanding and application instead of rote memory.

Also the last kenpoist Iv'e seen in MMA was that guy who beat up Yarlborough because the fatty couldn't move around. If it's such a kick * style where are your UFC fighters or Pride or K1.

 

If you are asking questions, how come you aren't useing question marks? Was your style effective- you got an answer any how? I've talked to Kenpoists who train for and compete in local venues. They have a totally different mindset. Some that train both realistically and for MMA competition go through a programing and deprograming phase of thraining when they compete and then come back to real training.

 

MMA comps are good training for reality in some ways. But, I'll say it again, if you aren't training for reality attacks you're kidding yourself that you are pepared for reality. Someone may square off and challenge you, and you stand a good chance to survive that. Then again, he may just slam you hard from behind without warning. He may use a weapon. He may have friends.

 

There are two primary things that differ in martial arts systems- the concepts that are used to apply the basic, common principles, and the method of training. I am useing this clip to help illustrate one of Kenpo's methods of training. I've often said here that it isn't for everyone. Many people thrive with this kind of instruction, most do well, but some don't do good at all with it.

 

As for the use of concepts, a lot depends on your focus, or what you are trying to accomplish. If you train for sport, you will apply a different set of concepts than if you train for self defence. If you train for both, your method must be a compromise.

 

And who said I'm on the ropes?

[Mart]

Its hard to answer without offending anyone. Im not trying to offend.

 

Personally i think that unless you train the techniwues full contact on a regular basis you have very little chance of using them succesfully.

 

Unfortunately you made the assumption that kempo does not feature in UFC. it has done and has done ok, I have one fight on video and the guy wins cant remember the name of it.

 

I maintain that UFC is the closest we have to the real thing. If you were going into it wouldnt you want to have the best chance of winning?

 

there is something telling me that people assume UFC guys have little skill and use brute force. Remember these guys train full time and under THE best instructors in the world.

 

http://www.wrestlingkingdom.com/ufc/ufcmain.html

 

if you look through the UFC results here you will find some Kempo wins.

[delta1]

there is something telling me that people assume UFC guys have little skill and use brute force. Remember these guys train full time and under THE best instructors in the world.

 

Absolutely not on the first part- agreed on the second!

 

One of the things that makes a boxer so dangerouse, even though his style is sport and very limmited at that, is he trains regularly with contact and INTENT! Training for MMA full contact is excellent training, even with its relatively few limmitations (rules, and some posible deficiencies in self defense techniques). I hope I havn't given the impression I disrespect MMA.

 

The pros, and those wishing to go pro, I would think get the best they can afford. And I'm sure they have a brutal training regimine. I'm not cutting them down in any way.

 

Look at it fom others perspective, though. Not everyone is suited for this kind of training. Some people just don't want to, others can't. When I first started, we used to go out with no protection and fight contact in the crap. Now, I'm over 50 with some health problems, and I appreciate that over the years I've collected a few items of protective gear. And I can't train as hard as I used to. I'll still work with the hard contact guys when I can, but you aren't likely to find me in Pride, K-1, or UFC. This is another thing I appreciate about the Kenpo method of training with techniques- when I feel like it, I can run them under hard physical contact. But when I can't, I can go back and gently refine them, tweak them, explore different applications. I can adjust the level of contact and exertion to suit how I feel at the time. Give me one workout with heavy contact, I can guarantee the next couple will be light, working on technique. Most workouts are somewhere in between.

 

So don't think I, or probably most people, disrespect what you do. But there are many ways to train, and many methods. There are also many reasons for taking the martial arts. I don't claim Kenpo is best for everybody, any more than I would say everyone should train with hard contact all the time. The farthest I'll go is to say that if you don't train with contact sometime, you drastically reduce your chances of success if you have to use your skills for real. Then again, not everyone wants to train for that eventuality either. To each his own.

[Fat Donkey]

Do u guys train full contact? If so how full and with what rules? (reach for the bait and stop being so bloody intelligent and sporting ). Also if youre a average guy who go's out in public there is a chance u might get in a fight. However will that fight be life or death? Probably not, just an altercation. If I use my MT skills the guy is probably going to get KO'd or won't be able to walk on one leg. However if I use a knifehand strike to his throat he will probably suffer severe if not fatal damage and my MT skills will do little against the cops or the 6 guys in the prision showers. By using my style (theoretically) I have won the fight using techniques I've learned and used in full contact. I know how hard to hit and how to protect myself. I have also not killed my opponent using a deadly technique which I have never used on a resisting individual. How bout them apples delta PS GO FLAMES GO!

[Fat Donkey]

Oh yeah! Drunken Monkey I pretty much agree with everything u say, but if we all agreed no one would chat on this site and we wouldn't have great threads like these So for the greater good I will play Devils Advocate (ie JERK) and say that your full of crap and some styles make for good punching bags. eg every wing chun guy who tried MMA. Every Karate guy who tried MMA (I'm talking purist here not multi disciplined). Still love me?

[TheDevilAside]

So for the greater good I will play Devils Advocate

 

Aw crap, looks like I've been laid off.

Probably not, just an altercation. If I use my MT skills the guy is probably going to get KO'd or won't be able to walk on one leg. However if I use a knifehand strike to his throat he will probably suffer severe if not fatal damage and my MT skills will do little against the cops or the 6 guys in the prision showers.

 

We already went through this. Kenpo is adaptable, we train to kill (hehe, cool), to beat them to a bloody pulp, to knock out, or to tickle...?! I'm tired, I apologize for the nonsensical (that a word?) nature of this post.

Do u guys train full contact? If so how full and with what rules?

 

Yes. Uhm, as full as a glass can get. Rules depend. The after-class sparring class is pretty much whatever you want with gear. Some of the higher belts train with no gear and go at each other pretty forecfully. No strikes to the throat. No hitting while the opponent's down. Uhm, I haven't gone to those in a while, I'd have to refresh my memory. But yes, some of us do spar full contact.. only those who are willing.

I have won the fight using techniques I've learned and used in full contact. I know how hard to hit and how to protect myself.

 

Ever gotten into a fight before? Just curious. Y'know.. have you "tested" your style?

Still love me?

 

Pfft.. but you're right, this thread was pretty interesting.

[delta1]

Do u guys train full contact? If so how full and with what rules?

 

Varries from school to school, but yes, we fight with "full" contact. There are usually rules, and we respect that everyone has to go home healthy at the end of the day. One good example, many of our shin kicks to the legs are designed to destroy joints, as opposed to the sporting variety which tends to just make the leg hurt and cramp up. We obviously don't take those shots. They are practiced under force in our self defences, but it is controled force. Also, they can be applied full force to a dummy.

 

Often, in schools I've visited, there is no requirement that everyone fight with full contact. But the vast majority do require it at upper colored belts, and I have not been to a school that will give a black belt if you don't fight full contact. Typically, it seems, the full contact guys either stick around after class and work out, or meet on weekends, or both. These are the seriouse martial artists, not the average guy paying to keep the doors open. Of course, if you make it to Brown in AK, you are probably pretty seriouse any how. I will also say that we probably don't do it as often as the average Muay Thai/MMA school. On the other hand, those that train with excesive contact tend to get 'punch drunk'. They often have trouble carrying a decent conversation, and have to ask people to dumb it down a bit so they can participate.

(reach for the bait and stop being so bloody intelligent and sporting ).

 

No problem, I fully understand. I'll be happy to accomodate!

...get in a fight...If I use my MT skills the guy is probably going to get KO'd or won't be able to walk...use a knifehand strike to his throat he will probably suffer severe if not fatal damage and my MT skills will do little against the cops or the 6 guys in the prision showers...By using my style (theoretically) I have won the fight using techniques I've learned and used in full contact. I know how hard to hit and how to protect myself. I have also not killed my opponent using a deadly technique which I have never used on a resisting individual...

 

AK allows for use of varrying degrees of force and control. It's all about options.

 

If you do find yourself in the showers with six prisoners or MT types , AK works well for multiple opponents. Your odds ain't too good, true. But better than with nothing. And better than a system that only goes face to face, one on one.