Kenpo Application/Training

[delta1]

Let's discuss the point about the 'unrealistic attack some more. As I pointed out, there are three phases of learning a technique. You saw ther transition from phase 1 to 2 here. It was slow, broken down, everything explained, som points made and some questions asked. It was not the end product, where the opponents acts with force and possibly some variances. And ALL martial arts train this way. I've worked some with grapplers and MT/MMA practitioners. So don't try to spread any donkey dung about them starting off with realism.

 

I've seen grapplers learn techniques with the instructor laying limp as a rag on the mat, letting them apply the hold and correcting them as they went. Later, they apply the same hold with resistance, but not at first. And your first MT kick was not a head shot from close in- you started out and learned bassics, form and technique.

 

I'll give you another example- punches. Every style I've seen starts you learning to 'block' a punch thrown at least at arms length. Reality- that punch is going to come as a jab from in close, and your 'block' had better do more than just stop that punch. Point is, you don't start out learning to defend full force jabs to the nose, with intent, from close in. And your first blocks only do one thing, they block. You work up to it, and later they do more than you probably immagined they could when you threw that first one.

[Fat Donkey]

Okay, yes, I was baiting u, and no disrespect intended I agree with u about Master Parker, being as he was one of the founding fathers of MA's in north America. Also I'm not saying I can't get taken down, I was just answering your question as to how I try to avoid being taken down. Everything u have said has been well thought out and backed by experience. However my experience has been different I used to do these prepared attack routines in Aikido and Shotokan, and we used to do a little in our MT self defense. I just don't think they work and I think time is much better spent practising combos and sparring than going through these hypothetical situations. Muscle memory will determine survival in the opening seconds of a conflict, not complicated and lets face it slow techniques. In my MUy Thai classes we deliberately did not start at arms length even as beginners. We always tried to maintain fighting distance, ie where blows connect. Yes we got hit alot but the constant focus on realistic fighting, is in my opinion the only way to go.

[TheDevilAside]

Muscle memory will determine survival in the opening seconds of a conflict, not complicated and lets face it slow techniques.

 

That is exactly what the practice of these techniques try to accomplish. You do them over and over again until they are ingrained into your muscle memory and they become a reflex, and believe it or not, it works. I've found myself executing many of the principles and "mini moves" by reaction when my friends just mess around with me, and at full speed, mind you.

 

Every single strike in just about every technique in American Kenpo is interchangable with another and you're supposed to apply the principles you learned from varying techniques.

 

In American Kenpo, you could find yourself learning up to 5 different (maybe even more, I don't know, ask Delta1 ) techniques for the same attack. Why? So that you can adapt to the variables of the attack. Each technique is a different path to the same destination, and depending on the situation, you'll find yourself taking short-cuts and switching on to different paths to get to that destination. For one attack, you could grab elements from 50 different techniques for 50 different attacks you've learned and apply them. American Kenpo is meant to be a dynamic system.

 

Now, I bet you're wondering, how the hell can you learn so many techniques all to the point where they're all second nature? Simple, practice! And that every upper belt technique you learn has its fundamental roots in the white to purple techniques you learned. As you go up in the ranks and learn the more complicated techniques, you'll notice that it always has that same "feel" to it and the same style, it's just a slightly different approach and variation to an identical, or slightly different attack.

 

Once you're a brown belt and testing for black, the instructors won't care as much if you can perform all of the techniques on your opponent by the book, but how well and fluently you can adapt to the attack so that ultimately your opponent will be on the ground and not you.

 

Granted, I'm biased and I'm only an Orange belt in American Kenpo and will have trained for this art a year in August. But I figured you were getting tired of baiting the same old fish

 

And yes, I know, I might as well have just copied and pasted everything Delta1's said in this thread and put my name at the end. I guess Kenpo minds think alike, right?

[TheDevilAside]

Now, in conclusion to my former conclusion (it just never ends), these techniques or mini-kata's as Delta1 put it, basically just hand you the weapons to defend yourself. But to use these weapons effectively in the "street" where your adrenaline is pumping and a 5 second fight seems like 5 hours (or 5 miliseconds, I don't know, for me it always seemed like an eternity) you have to simply get experience. That is why in American Kenpo and a lot of other styles of martial arts, we spar and have "reality scenario drills" such as where one of the instructors straps on some medi-eval armor and starts taunting, shoving and grabbing you and you have the choice of striking him to divert his attention so that you can run away, or like me, give him a serious * whoopin' ..just as long as you're safe in the end.

 

Also, we don't practice all of those techniques that slow. Only in the beginning (or whenever you need to refine something) until you've grasped the fine details of it, then you can start practicing at medium speed and full speed, depending on who your partner is. We're not wussies in American Kenpo, y'know.

[Mart]

One quesion Do you guys have to wite alot in your MA training?

 

Im being silly. Now seriously. I still think that straight forward sparrring is better. But thats my MT breeding for you. If it works for you and the others that practice it then your obviously doing something right.

[Drunken Monkey]

hmm, i think we write a lot because we spend so much time online trying to explain things to people that would normally take 30 seconds to show in a training hall....

 

then they equate that we can only talk.

 

then they misunderstand what we typed originally.

 

then they think that what we said=what we do.

 

then they think that what we do don't work.

 

so... we try to explain more to clarify.

 

then even more misunderstandings occur....

[delta1]

Okay, yes, I was baiting u, and no disrespect intended

 

No problem, I immagine there was someone else out there thinking along these lines. So, now they know too.

I used to do these prepared attack routines in Aikido and Shotokan, and we used to do a little in our MT self defense. I just don't think they work ...

 

I agree with you, if you are only learning them as a prepared response. And the things you mention that MT does are important also. But if you work these techniques, really understand them, andtake your thinking outside that restrictive, dogmatic box, they are a good training tool.

 

Example: there is a common takedown from behind (I'm sure you grapplers can do better than this), where both arms are around the throwees waist, your head is tucked in close to his back, and you anchor one or, preferably both his heels by placing your feet behind them and pulling back. You then straighten one leg and bend the other, taking him around towards your bent leg and down. Useing Squating Sacrifice, or some of the concepts in it, you can defend this by immediately dropping your butt into him. It takes some of his control away, buckles him back and down. Also drops your height relative to his so you have a shot at an elbow strike. Depending on timeing and relative positioning, you may end up with one of his legs between yours, in which case you might be able to apply a lock. You could also work off the elbow strike to turn and go for top position in a side mount. A lot of possibilities which I'd like to work- I started back to light training yesterday and I'm getting antsy.

 

Any way, I'm not saying this type of training is for everybody. But it does work.

[delta1]

One quesion Do you guys have to wite alot in your MA training?

 

You think these posts are long? You should see my notes on some of these techniques!

[delta1]

TheDevilAside, you made some good points. Couple of things- first, they aren't fish bait, they're shark bait! ( I couldn't resist a shot of my own!!! )

 

As to the number of techniques for a common attack, there are typically (but not allways) four. Mr. Parker liked to counter from the four cardinal directions, whether in a horizontal (front, back, left, riht) or vertical (up, down, and sides) plane of attack.

[Mart]

I just worry when i read stuff like this that you can talk and talk and yes you have your noets etc, but can you do it?

 

Have yuo got it. THere is a big difference between explaining techs ans being able to them against ....and this is important......a NON Kempo guy.