Kenpo Application/Training

[delta1]

This clip is a good example of what I've been talking about here with working through techniques, reworking, combining- basically doing more than just learning the base move and testing.

 

http://www.unitedparkerskenpo.com/Onthemat.html

 

There are a few things that don't get covered in a short video clip. In Squating Sacrifice, when you pull his leg up between yours and squat, there is (or can be) a knee break there. After the groin scoop, the stomp to the lower back can be done as a break, or just a stomp to the Ming Min cavity. And note the first part of his cover out, Mr. Ryer kicks the arm down and stomps it as he steps away, so that he has control till completely disengaged. There are several other hidden moves and changeups in this sequence that you can probably pick out.

 

Also, it is done slow for demo purposes, but you'd obviously do this evolution with speed and flow, or risk giving your opponent time to react as pointed out.

[Fat Donkey]

Dude, I just lost all respect for Kenpo. These prepared defense * teaches people a lot of crap. I don't mean to insult u or the style but isn't this a way to sell crappy videos? These scenario fight sequences are just preparation for getting your butt kicked in unpredictable real life situations. I appreciate the work and trouble u went through to post this though. Lets start debating

[Mart]

reminded me of south park for some reason. Take down sucks.

 

If he holds on to you you end up on the grounds on top of him. Youll fall with him. Then you neck is exposed to the choke. Real dangerous.

 

I hate this prearranged stuff.

 

When they role the attacker around he ends up in loads of positions where he can easily take you down. Works fine though as longas your attacker isnt trying to fight you.

[delta1]

HEY, Large One! Now you're trying to ride MY donkey!

Lets start debating

 

We can do that! In fact, I was getting a little worried that you guys were going to be uncharachteristically nice and not say anything!

These prepared defense * teaches people a lot of crap. I don't mean to insult u or the style but isn't this a way to sell crappy videos?

 

I hate this prearranged stuff.

 

First off, it isn't a 'prepared' or 'prearranged defense', which would imply that it is meant to be run as demonstrated in a real fight. Go back to the caveats I listed for improving TKD ( http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7705&start=10 ), and they apply here as well. In fact, that is one of the main themes in this technique, one of the main things it teaches is NOT to get too hung up on running a particular technique. Remember when he started, he said he started with Crashing Wings- a different technique. Then, he said he recognized where his opponents right foot was, and changed. This foot position would have made the other technique difficult or impossible to apply. So he changed his counter attack. Later, toward the end of the tape, he again bailed out of the technique because of relative positioning of the opponents arm.

 

These techniques are not rote responses to a particular attack, and were not meant to be run as written. They are a vehicle to teach principles, concepts, and moving under force of an attack. What you see in this instruction is the transition from the first to second stage of learning a technique. You run the base as written in the ideal phase, then you start to question "What iff?".

If he holds on to you you end up on the grounds on top of him. Youll fall with him. Then you neck is exposed to the choke. Real dangerous. When they role the attacker around he ends up in loads of positions where he can easily take you down. Works fine though as longas your attacker isnt trying to fight you.

 

In the final stage of learning, the attack is applied with full force and these variables you talk about. You are required to formulate changeups and test them under force, though the initial attack is the same. Some changeups are done intentionally to try them out, sometimes you have to do them spontaneously because of variations in attackers anatomy or style. And, obviously, if the atttacker does something different, the defender has to respond differently.

 

One other thing you need to understand about AK's method of instruction- this is for a particular type of attack, but not a specific in every detail attack. He's probably slammed you and drove you forward any how, and his right leg steps in so you don't pull him off ballance. He's really put you in position for this technique himself. And, it is for a street fighters attack, not a BJJer. I'll get to that in a little bit.

 

"Kenpo employs linear as well as circular moves, utilizing intermittent power when and where needed, interspersed with minor and major moves which flow with continuity. It is flexible in thought and action so as to blend with encounters as they occur." -- Edmund K. Parker Don't get locked in to useing a particular technique for a particular attack. Use what you learned from the techniques to blend and flow with the attack, moving for position and useing his actions against him.

Edited May 24, 2004 by delta1

[delta1]

Mr. Ryerson does this a little different than I learned it. Every time I've done this, that leg straightened when I squated. He's already moving back and down, you just have to lift the unweighted foot into position. I was also taught that you bring that foot up violently and squat deep enought to break or hyperextend the knee. You want to keep him flat out so he can't launch that kick immediately- your butt isn't the most vulnerable target back there. He may have watered this down some for the net- too many lawyers these days, about one for each idiot with out the sense to go easy trying this.

 

If the knee does stay bent, you still momentarily check his right leg, anchoring it to the ground. It's going to be difficult for him to initiate anything quickly like that. Also, you should probably move back into him a little to get that knee straightend and the foot unweighted.

 

If you do get pulled over onto him, hit him with an elbow as you land and try to move for position. Your initial defense is blown, do something different!

 

Another thing I do different is that as I roll him over, I find the hold I have on the right foot lifts his pelvis off the ground slightly. I also usually find that my foot is not tight into his crotch. I step in and shovel kick the groin. And I start this before he's over flat on his stomache. Remember, the video was in the ideal phase. The real application flows fast, continuous, and uninterrupted.

 

The last part of the technique is where you can really start to change things up. There are a lot of reasons you might not want to pick up his arm and stomp his back. Don't want to cripple him, the aforementioned lawyers, other opponents, ... . One of my favorite variations is to leave the arm alone and either pendulum kick his occiput and cover out directly in front (say his friend is comeing in and you don't want to go the way the tech was written), or stomp the head and kneel on the arm to control it as you leave. If I do grab the arm, I practice the check against my leg as a break. LEO's like to move into cuffing techniques. Grapplers either apply a leg lock, or the sight of an opponent flat on his stomache in front of them is to much to resist- they mount and do somethig evil to him. Also, if I bail on the technique like he did, I'd probably kick the arm just to make sure he doesn't reach out and grab.

 

There are a lot of changeups to this technique. But only so much you can show in a short video clip.

Edited May 24, 2004 by delta1

[delta1]

Now, since I have a BJJer on the hook, ( ). One of the things I want to work on this is a defense against a grappling takedown. I'm guessing that a grappler would do something like hook my right ankle with his right heel or ankle, keep his back straight, and pull me over and back to my left. He might even wrap, or 'grapevine' my leg. Would he track down and control my left leg with his left hand, or would he leave both arms around my waist? How would you defend against me just going with you, trying to control my fall and elbow strikeing either your jaw or your ribs or sternum (depending on relative positioning)? How would you do this attack/takedown?

 

Of course, any questions or comments, feel free to disgust-- I mean discuss-- Freudian slip there- sorry!

[Mart]

aahhhh i cant read that much.

 

Im beaten into submission by endless text. No way can i concentrate that long. What were we talking about?

 

I will read it again later.

[Fat Donkey]

Wow! Thats quite the reply, I guess we do have to be a bit obnoxious to really get the strings going. First let me address the quote from master Parker. He is waffling and he stole the idea from Bruce Lee's famous water analogy. Second, the extremely unlikely way the instructor was attacked in the video and his idiotic response will immediately humor anyone with streetfighting experience. C'mon, fall to my back on the floor? In a Bar, a parking lot in winter, with a dozen potential enemies ready to boot me in the face. Who performs a bear hug like that, leaving the arms free. No arms no grabbing the bloody leg. Are u fired up yet In essence everything u said leads up to being flexible when practicing crap. In the end u have really good looking crap that u can apply at any Mall demonstration. And will eventually lead u to the ER when u try to use it on the street. By the way I'm not BJJ, I did Judo. And in Mt we use the sprawl, elbows and neck clinch to prevent the guy from taking us down. Keep it coming!

[Mart]

Yeah that basically sums it up, thank god i didnt have to type much.

[delta1]

I guess we do have to be a bit obnoxious to really get the strings going.

 

No, you just have to talk about something I'm interested in, when I have time to reply, and I have to see it before someone else said what I wanted to. Pretty simple.

First let me address the quote from master Parker. He is waffling and he stole the idea from Bruce Lee's famous water analogy.

 

There was nothing waffling in that quote. It is a simple explanation of Kenpo. And he did not 'steal' it from Bruce Lee- more likely the other way around, though I wouldn't apply the term Steal to either. They were contemporaries, and both had a tremendous respect for the other. They disagreed on some things, but Mr Parker and Bruce Lee talked about many ideas, and agreed on many things. Bruce Lee trained with several of Ed Parkers schools (though he did not study Kenpo formally) and worked out regularly with several senior Kenpoists. But, by far, the senior martial artist in this relationship was Ed Parker. Just because you heard it from Bruce Lee doesn't mean the thought originated with him. For that matter, it probably didn't originate with Mr. Parker either. This was an emerging philosophy at the time, shared by many great martial artists. Ed Parker and Bruce Lee were two of the driving forces behind this philosophy in the US at that time.

Second, the extremely unlikely way the instructor was attacked in the video and his idiotic response will immediately humor anyone with streetfighting experience. C'mon, fall to my back on the floor? In a Bar, a parking lot in winter, with a dozen potential enemies ready to boot me in the face. Who performs a bear hug like that, leaving the arms free. No arms no grabbing the bloody leg.

 

Give me (and every one else here) a break! You're saying that it never happens that someone is grabbed around the waist with their arms free? *! I've had it happen both in real life and sparing ground option with grapplers. Sorry bugers can get under your arm and behind faster than you know what happened. And befeore youn ask, I did not defend with this technique. Something else worked, untill we ended up on the floor any way, and I have no shame in saying it was his game from that point on.

 

You're also saying you can't be taken down? Listen, you aren't Superman. When that knee hyperextends, as I said in my earlier post, you're 'donkey' will hit the ground so hard you'll bounce! And I don't care if we're on broken glass, you're down! At that point, the foot unweights and comes right up- I don't even have to pick it up, just guide it till I decide whether to break or hyperextend.

Are u fired up yet

 

Allways, but not because of your attempts. Look, I know you are baiting me here, but it suits my purposes to answer you. Sorry to burst your bubble.

In essence everything u said leads up to being flexible when practicing crap. In the end u have really good looking crap that u can apply at any Mall demonstration. And will eventually lead u to the ER when u try to use it on the street. By the way I'm not BJJ, I did Judo. And in Mt we use the sprawl, elbows and neck clinch to prevent the guy from taking us down. Keep it coming!

 

We use those defenses also. We also practice offensive moves and fighting. But we do a lot of self defenses as well- NOT so we can run a particular technique when attacked, but so we can move. Those techniques are like mini katas, but done with a live opponent. And you have to work the 'bunkai', as the JMAers would say.

 

Getting long- more to follow.