Kung Fu ... crappy western term ?

[Drunken Monkey]

sometimes.

 

what i say is that i'm going to 'hok kung fu' (learn kung fu' or 'lin kung fu' (train kung fu).

 

technically, i can 'lin kung fu' at home.

 

going to a class suggests instruction which is why 'hok kung fu' is more correct.

 

(but 'lin kung fu' is also correct in that instance..)

 

making more sense on when you would use a particular term?

[47MartialMan]

Yes....thanks for your patience.

 

I must re-emphasize that I am not trying to irritate you.

 

I am just trying to get more explanations and more importantly…understand the explanations

 

Strange, my Chinese instructor tells me to stop asking for the Chinese translations on our workouts. He his adamant on speaking English. He tells me if we were in China, he would insist on speaking Chinese. He says we are in a land of English. I believe this could be his way of trying to fit in American/English culture.

 

So I have to find solutions and explanations elsewhere.

[Drunken Monkey]

.....it's hard to stick to english sometimes.

 

some things just don't translate

 

and

 

sometimes, if you try to translate,

 

you lose the intention of the original,

 

or it takes too long.....

 

it's hard to teach in chinese if you don't understand the language.

 

just learning what the terms are is not enough and doesn't actually 'work'.

 

i can explain something in maybe ten characters

 

but in english, those ten characters translates into a five minutes of explaining....

 

i've 'taught' wing chun to a non chinese speaker and i've found that it is best to show rather than to try to explain.

 

of course, i give a brief explanation of why i'm doing it like this,

 

but

 

even in english, there is always something missing

 

and there's no point in telling you what it is in chinese.....

[47MartialMan]

So do you think he doesnt want to speak and practice English to Chinese because it may be too difficult?

[Drunken Monkey]

not too difficult,

 

maybe too complicated and would lead to too much confusion

 

esp. if you are trying to explain concepts in chinese.

 

when translated, the english would only be a literal translation of the term, it would be a basic explanation.

 

you would be missing something that is implied in the chinese.

[47MartialMan]

I want to get "cultured". I think that is what makes what I am studying unique and just as important.

 

If one is to use the term Gong Fu, should one know all there is to know on the term? Should one know the origin and the culture of it?

[47MartialMan]

......and i am telling you what the term means and how it is used from the perspective of someone who speaks the language from birth.......

 

I can respect that...to a degree.

 

But, given this perspective:

 

I was born in America, it doesn't allow me to have "total knowledge" of ALL things American.

 

My mother side is French Acadian (Cajun)

 

Does that mean they can go to France and are well-versed in the complete French Language?

 

A friend of mine is from Mexico (Spanish)

 

Does that mean he can go to Spain and is well-versed in the complete Spanish Language?

 

Chinese, from I understand, has many different provinces with many different dialogues.

 

See where I am going?

 

In college, I enrolled in a class on Buddhism, the professor, half Indian, had introduced me to buddhist practitioners and ordain monks. Some of which were over-seas correspondence. (Chen Buddhist-Shaolin info)

 

In college, I also had a class in linguistics amd linguistic geography.

 

I have met old Chinese, including my Sifu and his Sifu, which used a different dialogue.

 

From these studies, language, from any land has changed.

 

Nothing is today is as spoken 50, 75, or centuries of years gone by.

 

There are possiblities beyond what you are born with.

 

Sometimes you "strut", which is ok, to a degree. We all do.

 

One cannot claim to have the all-righteous or correct knowledge.

 

One cannot claim to be always right.

 

Some of my posts are not necessarily my opinions or convictions. Some of them are vague or posted beyond a obvious reason(s). I love to read feedback, responses, and/or opinions. (i.e. the post about the many words....Kuen, Kuyhn...etc.)

 

So, I may state things about Chinese, or certain words, or of a certain subject, does not mean to offend or dis-respect you or anyone else.

[Drunken Monkey]

......and i am telling you what the term means and how it is used from the perspective of someone who speaks the language from birth.......

 

i was refering to the language aspect.

 

i wasn't talking about ALL chinese culture.

 

you have to understand that i see a lot of instances of chinese phrases and terms being bandied about in english form and being totally misunderstood mistranslated and misused.

 

are you saying i shouldn't point things out?

 

even if i know that they are presenting something that is wrong?

 

the thing about the chinese language is that there aren't many languages like it.

 

some things just don't translate

 

and there are a lot of implied meanings and overlaps of use and the context also plays a part in the word you use.

 

take the ever popular tai-chi chuan.

 

separately

 

tai= great/grand/extreme.

 

it isn't directly translateable

 

eg.tai dai(big)=too big, tai por(grandma)=great grandma

 

chi= something in the extreme

 

it's use is kinda complicated.

 

chuan= fist.

 

in this instance it is a short version of chuan fa (fist pattern/fist skill/fist movement)

 

another case it is the short version of chuan tou (fist head) which is the noun, if you like, for fist.

 

chuan can also mean punch depending on the context.

 

now here's the tricky bit.

 

together, 'tai-chi' has a third meaning that you will not get from the constituant parts

 

and so tai chi chaun=grand nexus fist (art).

 

it is this third bit, the implied/suggested representation/meaning that a lot of people just don't understand.

 

as a result, a lot of people will translate tai-chi chaun to be grand ultimate fist (art).

 

now this isn't wrong per se as the translation is correct

 

but it isn't actually right/true when talking about the martial art.

 

going back to 'kung fu'.

 

yes, the term itself does not translate into 'martial art'

 

but the term does mean 'martial art'

 

as well as a few other implied meanings.

 

there's another little phrase; "eat late night porridge/congee (or is it 'incense stick'?)"

 

that also implies/means that you train in martial arts.

 

go figure....

 

you might not have noticed

 

but i only tend to translate from the cantonese.

 

the instances when i have commented on the mandarin, i made sure that the grammer involved applied to both dialects.

 

the thing with cantonese is that it has pretty much remained a constant with the only exception being new vernacular.

 

with mandarin, it has been even more constant (blame the teaching system...) throughout the years.

 

and yes, i know of different dialects but that only really exists in the spoken form.

 

in writing, it's all more or less the same and has been so for a very long time.

 

i have a 'copy' of the gum gong ging from a few hundred years back and it reads just as it would today if you were to do a modern transcript of it.

[47MartialMan]

I am not challening you.

 

Just generating more understaning.

 

Why do you keep using the words "its complicated'?

 

You seem to have no problem writing down what you want to say.

 

"i have a 'copy' of the gum gong ging from a few hundred years back and it reads just as it would today if you were to do a modern transcript of it."

 

Does it have Kung Fu as a martial art mentioned in it?

 

And this is the proof (not tot mean that I dont beleive you), per reference, that I seek.

[Drunken Monkey]

i say it is complicated because it is.

 

the 'problem' with the chinese language is that there are no real rules to how things go (especially with cantonese);

 

nothing that can help you to understand.

 

it is all a case of either you know or you don't know.

 

in the examples i give,

 

i can explain because i know.

 

if i didn't, no amount of translating would be able to help understand/comprehend the other meanings that exist within phrases.

 

and no.

 

the gum gong ging is a buddhist script.

 

nothing about kung fu in it.

 

another little note.

 

the use of the term 'kung fu' is more or less a cantonese one.

 

in mandarin, they tend to use more specific terms.