Kung Fu ... crappy western term ?

[Drunken Monkey]

...not quite....

 

kung fu is something you have to work for.

 

this, i was born/raised with.

 

it's no different to you explaining english grammer.

[47MartialMan]

not quite...

 

kung fu can mean 'hard work' but it is used to describe the thing that needs hard work.

 

um, let's see.

 

if i was to praise your cooking i could say that your kung fu is good.

 

if i was to say that the plasterer is good i would say he has good kung fu.

 

so it isn't really a literal translation but the meaning is there.

 

when i say your kung fu is good, relating to cooking, i am actually saying that you must have spent a lot of time and effort (i.e hard work) to get good.

 

um, it's more like kung fu means 'hard work spent usefully'.

 

if i say your kung fu isn't enough i can either mean that you need to work harder or perhaps you need to work differently.

 

it's complicated.

 

not much translates well from chinese to english.

 

thank ytou thank you thank you.......

 

I am tired of the term, a misnomer, used to describe a particular martial art.......

[Drunken Monkey]

.....not quite.... (again)

 

i don't actually see many people use kung fu to describe any ONE martial art.

 

the term itself is used to refer to all chinese martial arts.

 

if i were asked if i knew any martial arts

 

i would say that i practice kung fu.

 

if asked further i would say that i practice wing chun.

 

if asked more i would then list the sifu's i have trained under.

 

all of them answers would be correct.

 

then again, it isn't wrong to say

 

hung gar kung fu

 

although just hung gar would do or even hung kuen.

 

wing chun kuen is more correct than wing chun kung fu (although wing chun kung fu isn't wrong)

 

shaolin kung fu is correct

 

shoilin kuen is a particular set of forms (i.e the fist ones and not elbow forms or kicking forms)

 

but the again, it can also be used as a general name for all shaolin martial/fighting arts.

 

white crane kung fu is correct

 

white crane kuen isn't.....

 

like i keep saying.

 

it's complicated and what you use is different depending on the style and what you are describing of the style.

[47MartialMan]

DM,

 

I stated a particular martial art not "all or one".

 

I used "particular" as meaning a general/open reference point, i.e. Chinese.

 

Please explain:

 

white crane kung fu is correct

 

white crane kuen isn't.....

[Drunken Monkey]

.....i don't get it.....

 

kung fu DOES mean chinese gung fu.

 

it also means a lot of things but it does without a doubt mean chinese martial art.

 

ok.

 

here goes....

 

technically, it should be white crane house/clan kung fu.

 

'bak hok pai kung fu'

 

i.e the kung fu of the bak hok clan.

 

a very basic explaination (cos there are exceptions to this rule)

 

'kuen' generally refers to a single form (or specific set of forms).

 

kung fu refers to the whole style.

 

using the shaolin kung fu-shaolin kuen as an example.

 

shaolin kung fu refers to every martial art aspect that is/was taught.

 

it emcompasses everything from hard conditioning, to tumbling to fighting to breathing.

 

shaolin kuen specifically refers to the fighting

 

and sometimes even just the hand forms as the kicking forms can be refered to by using 'gerk faat' (leg skills).

 

i.e kuen = hand skills

 

gerk faat = leg skills

 

in the case of white crane, you don't use kuen because it just isn't correct grammatically and doesn't describe it accurately enough anyway

 

because the forms aren't as specific as the base shaolin forms are in hand/foot emphasis.

 

what you would use to describe your kung fu if you were a student of bak hok pai kung fu

 

is simply 'bak hok'.

 

if you do use a suffix, it is either gonna be 'pai' or the whole name.

 

never 'kuen'.

 

this isn't going to make sense

 

but it is just how the language works.

 

for wing chun;

 

'wing chun' is correct.

 

'wing chun kuen' is correct.

 

'wing chun kuen kung fu' is correct

 

'wing chun kung fu' is correct.

 

basically, here, the style is hand based, hence 'kuen' being correct.

 

wing chun is also the name of the style so 'kung fu' is also correct.

 

make sense?

[47MartialMan]

No...

 

Why can't Kuen follow Hei?

 

And Kung Fu does not always mean Chinese Kung Fu...how so....

 

Its translation does not simply point to a martial art

 

Could it be misused by misrepresentation to cling onto a generic name for indentity.

[Drunken Monkey]

.......no.......

 

you are still applying engilsh rules to the chinese language.

 

'kung fu', the term, does not have a single specific meaning.

 

ONE meaning is 'chinese martial art'

 

another is 'hard work'

 

another is 'skill developed from lots of hard work'

 

but the two latter meanings are implied

 

whereas the first meaning is more 'actual'.

 

yes, there are other terms that also mean martial arts

 

like mo-kung, mo-hok, kuen faat, mo-shu

 

(romanisations from cantonese my own...).

 

kung fu is a term derived from mo-kung.

 

mo-kung means 'fighting hard work' (kinda)

 

'kung fu' in that context just means the hard work bit, not all of directly to do with fighting

 

i.e mo-kung is specifically the fighting/forms/sparring etc etc.

 

kung fu is everything from conditioning to weights to the fighting aspects.

 

you are seeing the word in terms of how it translates into english,

 

then you are using that english translation, in an english context to try to understand the term as it is in chinese.

 

it just doesn't work like that.

 

now please, don't argue unless you actually know chinese....

[47MartialMan]

I am not trying to argue.

 

My confusion stems from my Chinese instructor which dismisses the term use as only a martial art. He is a cantankerous old man that believes most Chinese want to use it for martial art purposes only. A "SINGULAR" indentity. It would seem he would prefer older or other terminolgies.

 

I do agree with you that 'kung fu', the term, does not have a single specific meaning.

 

Please, do not get upset. I value your opinion and replies in most extents.

[Drunken Monkey]

......and i am telling you what the term means and how it is used from the perspective of someone who speaks the language from birth......

 

my friends know i do 'kung fu'.

 

my closer friends know i do 'wing chun'.

 

when i tell my mum i'm going training, i tell her i'm going to 'lin kuen' (learn fist/pracrice fist) or 'dar kuen' (hit fist).

 

but it is also correct to say that i learn 'mo-kung' or 'mo-shu'.

 

'kuen fa' would refer to specifically the hand forms so i wouldn't use it cos that's not all i do

 

but

 

sometimes, i do just practice 'kuen fa' (which also falls under 'lin kuen')

 

i wouldn't call it 'mo-shu' cos that has a very specific meaning.

[47MartialMan]

Do you tell you mum you are going to kung fu training?