Small Circle or BJJ or TJJ

[Sho-ju]

Helio vs Kato- Kato had about a 40 lb weight advantage on him, and considered to be technically superior to the champion Kimura? Once the fight went to the ground, Kato was choked unconcious in about 2 minutes.

 

Helio vs Kimura? Kimura had an 80lb weight advantage over Helio, and was also 9 years younger. He claimed that because of this obscene advantage, if Helio lasted 3 minutes with him, he would be declared the winner- it took Kimura 13 minutes to submit Helio.

 

We know that Helio was an older man, but how much did he weigh? Kimura (5’6", 170cm; 85kg, 187lbs), was Helio only 100lbs?

 

Kato was older then Helio from what I remember reading, he was in his mid 50's.

 

*** DON'T GET ME WRONG ***

 

BJJ is far better then judo on the ground, the goals are different. I suggest to everyone, TAKE BOTH if you are able to do so.

 

https://www.onthemat.com/video-black.html as a highlight of the Camarillo Brother Exhibition, it's the way jujitsu/judo should look. Throws while standing and Bjj style ground work.

 

sj

 

PS: After rereading my post I see you may have gotten Kato and Kimura's weight reversed.

[Sho-ju]

Just wondering, can you post the source for you quotes taken from Dan Camarillo? He's one of my 'heros' if you will, I'd like to read more about his style of BJJ/Judo.

 

sj

[Gumbi]

That was posted on sherdog and the source for the site was given as https://www.mmaeurope.com

 

Like I said, Judo has fine ground work and it will make you into a good ground fighter, we're not debating that, but the ground work simply will not be as quality as BJJ.

[Reklats]

Oh and by the way can you name even one bjj expert who has defeated a judoka in either a pure grappling match or in NHB? I mean since bjj groundwork is so much better then surely you can name someone right? While your scratching your head trying to think of one check this link out.

 

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judovsbjj.html

 

Wow, six examples since 1950. Your propoganda convinced me.

 

After this summer I'm going to cross train with some judo people for a school semester or two. I'll have to dig up this thread then.

[goshinman]

Oh and by the way can you name even one bjj expert who has defeated a judoka in either a pure grappling match or in NHB? I mean since bjj groundwork is so much better then surely you can name someone right? While your scratching your head trying to think of one check this link out.

 

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judovsbjj.html

 

Wow, six examples since 1950. Your propoganda convinced me.

 

After this summer I'm going to cross train with some judo people for a school semester or two. I'll have to dig up this thread then.

 

My propoganda Did you even read the WHOLE article? Anywayz, In the mean time read this. http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/kano.html

 

Click on the newaza link.

Edited May 21, 2004 by goshinman

[goshinman]

Helio vs Kato- Kato had about a 40 lb weight advantage on him, and considered to be technically superior to the champion Kimura? Once the fight went to the ground, Kato was choked unconcious in about 2 minutes.

 

Helio vs Kimura? Kimura had an 80lb weight advantage over Helio, and was also 9 years younger. He claimed that because of this obscene advantage, if Helio lasted 3 minutes with him, he would be declared the winner- it took Kimura 13 minutes to submit Helio.

 

Royce Gracie vs Remco Pardoel- Pardoel was a European Ju Jitsu and Judo champion. He was choked after Royce took his back in UFC 2

 

Royce Gracie vs Yoshida II: Yes, you DID miss that one- because it was only aired in Japan. The 176 lb Gracie was able to dominate the 220lb Olympic Judo Gold Medalist EVERYTIME the fight went to the ground. The best position Yoshida was able to attain was a half guard. Royce nearly landed a few footlocks, passed Yoshida's guard, mounted him, and took his back twice. Did you see Yoshida's face after that fight? If you wanted points on a ground fight, Royce was up 15-0 on the ground fight, even though hes outweighed by 45 lbs.

 

Wanderlei Silva vs Yoshida: Im not going far with this one, because Im not going to say that Silva learned how to throw punches and knees due to his BJJ training. He trains at Chute Boxe Academy which is Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Yoshida certainly got the takedowns on him, but Silva, being a purple belt at the time, came inches away from winning with a nice Triangle choke against Yoshida who for some reason insisted on attempting submissions while IN Silva's guard. Yoshida is a great grappler, but I think you can see that his strength is his throws, where his (grappling)weakness is his ground techniques. Just as someone like Royce would have a strength on ground techniques and grappling weakness in takedowns.

 

Like I said, no one is saying that Judo isnt good or that it doesnt teach you good ground work- its simply that they spend ALOT of time on the standup game, because thats how you win in Judo, whereas BJJ spends ALOT of time on the ground game, because thats how you win in BJJ.

 

Lets turn this question around- How many judokas can you name that have done exceptionally well at Abu Dhabi?

Igor Yakimov, Mark Robinson, and Hayato Sakurai in the abu dhabi 1999 challenge.

[Sho-ju]

Sanae Kikuta trained judo at Meiji University, Japan. He competed at ADCC(no-gi tournament) and beat Saulo in the final.

[goshinman]

Before this thread self destructs into yet another bjj vs the world thread Maybe, what I said has somehow been misunderstood. I simply stated that a good judo school can turn you into just a good of a ground grappler as a bjj school. Gumbi is correct in that he is talking about sport judo. They train almost exclusivly under competition rules. However there are some judo clubs that focus almost entirely on newaza and are awesome on the ground. But generally the ratio for most schools is about 70/30 for nagewaza and newaza. But a great deal of time is also devoted to learning the various pinning positions in judo and the counters, as well as possible submissions from them.

[ninjanurse]

I just have to stick my neck out here and give a plug for Small Circle Jujitsu. Hopefully I can put this into words...

 

Having studied both Small Circle and Brazilian I would have to say that the physics of what makes Brazilian work so well are those that Proffessor Jay brougth forth in his style. The smaller the movement the more intense-which allows a smaller person to use physics rather than strength to defend and overcome. Brazilian uses these same concepts but on a diffrent scale. I make this statement based on personal experience not "expertise" so don't get too tweaked here please !! I originally studied Small Circle and I believe that it is the reason why I was able to grasp the concepts of BJJ and grapple successfully with men much larger and stronger than me ( I am 5'4" and weigh 113 lbs). There is a great frustration in not being able to move or pass on a person much smaller and "weaker" than you. This is not to say that someone who has only studied BJJ couldn't be as successful but I feel that Small Circle offers a different perspective and emphasis that allows the Martial artist to be more adaptable to the situation. In all fairness, had I studiied BJJ first I might not feel this way. I also might not feel this way if I hadn't been introduced to Small Circle by my sensei Clyde Kanekoa and his very dear friend...Professor Wally Jay.

 

[Judo Warrior]

Ok, why doesn't anyone get that "SPORT JUDO", often works on the street/real fights. Most people say most JUdo schools only teach "Sport JUDO" but noone gets that "sport JUDO" isn't very different from Kodokan Judo. The only difference is that "sport judo" doesn't have some of the more dangerous moves and atemi waza(striking). But IMO, SPORT JUDO is also fine for self-defence, and by the way, if u do fight someone on the street they will most likely be wearing cloth, so you could grab on to their cloth like a gi, and plus most Judo throws can be done without the GI, The gi is just used to make things either for u. BTW Sammyrai, I would defenitly go with Judo if u can.