Small Circle or BJJ or TJJ

[Treebranch]

Specialization is dangerous when you take the specialist somewhere he is not familiar with they don't adapt well. I think Kodokan Judo is all you need to defend yourself against almost anyone. The thing that MA's lack today is the reality of walking away from a fight. If you doubt you can take this person attacking you, withdraw. Your health and your life are more important than your pride. Know your strengths and your limits, also realize what you are learning doesn't make you invincible.

 

Anyway I have a lot of respect for all the MA's mentioned here, but I do have to say that Hapkido is the most rounded mentioned here. It is an incredibly well balanced MA.

[Reklats]

Random thought on this: I used to train where we did hapkido among other things. It seemed cool at the time, but looking back on it, it was the single most rediculous reality-wretch-inducing training I've ever personally participated in. I'm sure there's different hapkido out there somewhere, but why not just go with something solid like BJJ? BJJ will also add the ground half to your training better than any other art.

[Sorynn]

Random thought on this: I used to train where we did hapkido among other things. It seemed cool at the time, but looking back on it, it was the single most rediculous reality-wretch-inducing training I've ever personally participated in. I'm sure there's different hapkido out there somewhere, but why not just go with something solid like BJJ? BJJ will also add the ground half to your training better than any other art.

 

Reklats,

 

Unfortunately, people that practice other arts, especially other Korean arts, will sometimes gain minimal knowledge of hapkido then incorporate it into there curiculum and claim to be teaching style XXX and Hapkido. In my opinion that is dishonest to the student and to Hapkido itself.

 

Since Hapkido is a soft art and taught as an integrated system of striking, kicking, throwing and clinch work, I imagine it would be difficult to intrigrate into TKD or TSD, like some people try. I know that the former TKD and shotokan guys at my school sometimes have trouble moving and thinking in the manner of a soft style.

 

Perhaps, that was part of your experience?

 

Sammyra,

 

In response to your initial message... Have you visited the schools, yet? I think that is the first thing you should do. My guess is that you will know where you should be after you visit the schools and participate in a couple classes. Personally, I would choose BJJ or Judo if I where you, but that is just my opinion.

 

Good luck in your search.

[goshinman]

I don't agree with anything you said. To say that judo clubs spend most of their time donig stand up is about as broad a generalization as can be. I don't know if you have really trained with real judoka or not but I can tell by you making those kinds of statements that you most likely haven't. And what fight were you watching were you saw Royce DOMINATING Yoshida on the ground? I must have missed that one. Like I said before a GOOD judo club(meaning one that dosen't focus on sport judo as much) will have you just as proficient in the ground game as any bjj school period.

[goshinman]

Oh and by the way can you name even one bjj expert who has defeated a judoka in either a pure grappling match or in NHB? I mean since bjj groundwork is so much better then surely you can name someone right? While your scratching your head trying to think of one check this link out.

 

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judovsbjj.html

[Gumbi]

Helio vs Kato- Kato had about a 40 lb weight advantage on him, and considered to be technically superior to the champion Kimura? Once the fight went to the ground, Kato was choked unconcious in about 2 minutes.

 

Helio vs Kimura? Kimura had an 80lb weight advantage over Helio, and was also 9 years younger. He claimed that because of this obscene advantage, if Helio lasted 3 minutes with him, he would be declared the winner- it took Kimura 13 minutes to submit Helio.

 

Royce Gracie vs Remco Pardoel- Pardoel was a European Ju Jitsu and Judo champion. He was choked after Royce took his back in UFC 2

 

Royce Gracie vs Yoshida II: Yes, you DID miss that one- because it was only aired in Japan. The 176 lb Gracie was able to dominate the 220lb Olympic Judo Gold Medalist EVERYTIME the fight went to the ground. The best position Yoshida was able to attain was a half guard. Royce nearly landed a few footlocks, passed Yoshida's guard, mounted him, and took his back twice. Did you see Yoshida's face after that fight? If you wanted points on a ground fight, Royce was up 15-0 on the ground fight, even though hes outweighed by 45 lbs.

 

Wanderlei Silva vs Yoshida: Im not going far with this one, because Im not going to say that Silva learned how to throw punches and knees due to his BJJ training. He trains at Chute Boxe Academy which is Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Yoshida certainly got the takedowns on him, but Silva, being a purple belt at the time, came inches away from winning with a nice Triangle choke against Yoshida who for some reason insisted on attempting submissions while IN Silva's guard. Yoshida is a great grappler, but I think you can see that his strength is his throws, where his (grappling)weakness is his ground techniques. Just as someone like Royce would have a strength on ground techniques and grappling weakness in takedowns.

 

Like I said, no one is saying that Judo isnt good or that it doesnt teach you good ground work- its simply that they spend ALOT of time on the standup game, because thats how you win in Judo, whereas BJJ spends ALOT of time on the ground game, because thats how you win in BJJ.

 

Lets turn this question around- How many judokas can you name that have done exceptionally well at Abu Dhabi?

[Gumbi]

Consider the following article:

 

Are BJJ practitioners as good as Judo players at throws? Of course not. Are Judo players as good as BJJ stylists on the ground? Of course not. For some reason, the first of these statements is readily accepted, while the second is hotly debated.

 

If you are one of the few who still believe that Judo "ne-waza" and BJJ groundwork are one and the same, consider the following quotes from two brothers who know what they're talking about...

 

Dan Camarillo: "After practice I came to the conclusion that Jiu-Jitsu is much more technical and I wanted to know more! I had a problem with new blue belts and here I am, a junior national champion in Judo. So I could not imagine how good their purple, brown, and black belts would be."

 

"I would have to say at one point the mat work was close, but not anymore. The Gracies have perfected the art, and all the new top BJJ guys out there are coming up with more and more techniques never seen before. The longer BJJ is out there, the more it is pulling away from Judo and it already has pulled far enough away to be on its own. I am not trying to put Judo down in any way at all. I love it, it helps me so much, but I have gotten rid of 90% of the mat work I have learned from it."

 

Dave Camarillo: "Bottom line for those who know both arts: know that they are very different in purpose and application. Also, you never hear of Jiu-Jitsu guys claiming that they are the best at throws, but they do use them. I hear a lot of trash talk coming from Judo guys that they are this and that on the ground. Even saying that Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are the same. Well, they are not. I feel that after training with guys like Nino that there are no Judo guys that I have ever seen or fought that could come close to them on the ground."

 

Judo and BJJ have similar techniques on the ground, but the rules of Judo urge competitors to win with spectacular throws rather than submissions. In contrast, a throw (if it occurs at all) is just the beginning of a sport Jiu-Jitsu match. For the duration of the match, the referee will not interfere with the competitors, who will continuously fight for dominant positions and submission holds until the time is up or someone has tapped out.

 

It's no wonder that Judo groundwork techniques have suffered in comparison with BJJ, when the following rules are considered:

 

(1) The lifting rule. Suppose you are standing, but your opponent has you in an arm bar and is going for the finish. What should you do? According to BJJ, the first priority is to reduce the pressure on your elbow by stacking him up (putting your body weight on his legs to keep him from arching his back). Judo rules dictate that you should simply lift your opponent off of the ground (which actually increases the pressure on your elbow), because the referee will stop the match and restart you both standing. This rule gets Judo practitioners in big trouble when they participate in a sport in which the referee will not intervene on their behalf.

 

(2) The "no apparent progress" rule. In Jiu-Jitsu, if someone balls up and gives his back to his opponent, he is in trouble. Don't be surprised if he ends up being choked into submission before too long. In Judo, it's much more likely that the referee will soon say "matte" (which rhymes with latte and means stop) and stand the fighters up. With very little time to work on the ground, Judo players have no incentive to learn how to gradually improve their position until a finishing hold can be applied.

 

(3) The 25 second pin. In Judo you can win a match by pinning your opponent for 25 seconds. Why jeopardize a sure win and go for a finishing hold, when all you have to do is hold on? This is certainly another rule that discourages Judo stylists from improving their submission skills from a dominant position.

 

So what about the Hidehiko Yoshida vs. Royce Gracie fight? If BJJ is so superior on the ground, why couldn't Royce submit Yoshida? In a word, "defense." A gold medalist in Judo really should be good enough to defend himself on the ground if that is his only goal. Keep in mind that it's easier to defend against submissions than it is to execute them, and there are no unstoppable attacks. Royce showed superiority on the ground by repeatedly achieving dominant positions such as the mounted position and taking the back. The fact that he couldn't submit Yoshida doesn't mean that they were equals any more than a lack of a knockout would indicate that two boxers are necessarily equals.

 

The rules of Judo aren't going to change anytime soon, so expect BJJ to become more and more dominant on the ground as the years go by. Of course, don't hold your breath waiting for BJJ practitioners to be throwing Judo players, either!

 

https://www.mmaeurope.com

 

Its hard to be the best in one aspect of fighting without in some way sufferring in another. BJJ is so good on the ground because its so bad standing up. No one is knocking Judo here- we're simply stating the obvious. Is boxing a useless fighting style? I could argue that its useless because boxing alone never fared well in MMA competitions- but every fighter in today's MMA incorporates boxing into their training regiment. Everything is about cross training today. If I want to learn throws, Im going to take Judo. If I want to learn ground techniques, Im going to learn BJJ.

[Treebranch]

I just think BJJ has better training standards than most TJJ and Hapkido, but it depends on the school.

[WolverineGuy]

I'm going to chime in again with a disagreement, but only partially. I think that if you want to LEARN ground techniques, and want to be balanced, Judo is by far the better option. If you have no interest in stand up throwing and wish to concentrate on groundfighting, go with BJJ. The difference is not the technique you learn, but the fact that you spend a LOT more time on the ground. As for the difference in technique between BJJ and Judo...there is VERY little. There is some variety due to philosophical differences between Kano and the Gracies, but the groundfighting is virtually identical, save for the amount of time on the mat. I've rolled with guys from both arts, and the best guy on the mat I've had the pleasure of going with was a brown belt in Judo. It just depends on the place you train, and what the concentrate on.

[Treebranch]

Well put.