Small Circle or BJJ or TJJ

[Gumbi]

A good Judo school will have you just as proficient in grappling as any bjj school will. that is a known fact.

 

Thats the most ridiculous statement I've heard. Judo is notorious for standup. BJJ for the ground. The rules in Judo are sport oriented whereas the rules in BJJ are oriented more towards a fight. On top of that, only subs at the elbow and chokes are allowed in Judo.

 

Why cant Judo fighters face facts? BJJ guys do all the time- when they want to learn takedowns, they learn wrestling and Judo. Why cant a Judoka just accept that for more complete ground work, he needs BJJ?

[WolverineGuy]

A good Judo school will have you just as proficient in grappling as any bjj school will. that is a known fact.

 

Thats the most ridiculous statement I've heard. Judo is notorious for standup. BJJ for the ground. The rules in Judo are sport oriented whereas the rules in BJJ are oriented more towards a fight. On top of that, only subs at the elbow and chokes are allowed in Judo.

 

Why cant Judo fighters face facts? BJJ guys do all the time- when they want to learn takedowns, they learn wrestling and Judo. Why cant a Judoka just accept that for more complete ground work, he needs BJJ?

 

Gumbi, THAT is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. I'll admit that SOME judo schools focus too much on stand up, but the ground game is very important in most judo schools. Remember your roots. Apparantly, you've never competed against a judoka...or at least, a good one.

[Gumbi]

[quote name="WolverineGuy

 

Gumbi' date=' THAT is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. I'll admit that SOME judo schools focus too much on stand up, but the ground game is very important in most judo schools. Remember your roots. Apparantly, you've never competed against a judoka...or at least, a good one.[/quote]

 

Hey, we're not saying that you cant learn quality ground work at a Judo school- its just simply you arent going to get as good on the ground doing Judo instead of BJJ.

 

Let me explain, in Judo, there are no points given out on the ground, and the only submissions allowed are locks at the elbow and choke holds. You also are not allowed to choke across the face, or put any pressure to the face for that matter. So, in Judo, tucking your chin is all one needs to do to defend a choke from the best ground fighters. In BJJ, no one cares if you tuck your chin- they'll continue to choke you until they break your jaw. At any time during a Judo match, if your opponent lifts you off the mat, matte is called and you resume standing. This goes for submission holds too. You have no idea how many Judokas attempt to escape submissions such as choke holds and armbars by simply trying to lift my back off the ground. This works in Judo, but in a fight, you want to do the complete opposite- lifting your opponent leads to a broken arm.

 

The other means to win a match is by pinning someone, but this by no means does anything in a real fight. BJJ if you're caught in cross side, no big deal- work an elbow escape and try to get back to the guard. You'd be surprised how many Judo guys willingly turn to their stomach and flatten out, giving me their back. Thats practical suicide in a fight. I train in BJJ, but Im also smart enough to train with the Judo guys at my school so as to train my standup. When the Judo guys want to work on their groundwork- they come to the BJJ classes- its pretty obvious.

 

The reason for this is quite simply the rules of the competition. Judo doesnt reward for improving position on the ground, whereas BJJ gives points for attaining the best positions in a fight. Its the RULES and OBJECTIVES of the two styles that set them apart. No one said the techniques of BJJ are better than Judo, simply because they're all pretty much identical. Its the OBJECTIVES of the two sports that make the difference.

 

And I've trained with some of the top Judoka's in the country- one from Eastern Europe who was ranked top 10 in the country I believe, and 2 more who are primed for the Olympics. The Judo instructors over there are smart- they arent closed minded. They realize BJJ is better on the ground, so they use that to compliment their Judo game. A few BJJ'ers who care about takedowns with the gi are also smart as well, as we take Judo classes to improve our takedowns.

 

Even take Royce Gracie vs Yoshida- Yoshida is a gold medalist, arguably one of the best in his division in the world. Royce certainly isnt the best at light heavy anymore, yet he mutilated him on the ground.

[Gumbi]

[quote name="WolverineGuy

 

Gumbi' date=' THAT is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. I'll admit that SOME judo schools focus too much on stand up, but the ground game is very important in most judo schools. Remember your roots. Apparantly, you've never competed against a judoka...or at least, a good one.[/quote]

 

Hey, we're not saying that you cant learn quality ground work at a Judo school- its just simply you arent going to get as good on the ground doing Judo instead of BJJ.

 

Let me explain, in Judo, there are no points given out on the ground, and the only submissions allowed are locks at the elbow and choke holds. You also are not allowed to choke across the face, or put any pressure to the face for that matter. So, in Judo, tucking your chin is all one needs to do to defend a choke from the best ground fighters. In BJJ, no one cares if you tuck your chin- they'll continue to choke you until they break your jaw. At any time during a Judo match, if your opponent lifts you off the mat, matte is called and you resume standing. This goes for submission holds too. You have no idea how many Judokas attempt to escape submissions such as choke holds and armbars by simply trying to lift my back off the ground. This works in Judo, but in a fight, you want to do the complete opposite- lifting your opponent leads to a broken arm.

 

The other means to win a match is by pinning someone, but this by no means does anything in a real fight. BJJ if you're caught in cross side, no big deal- work an elbow escape and try to get back to the guard. In Judo, you can escape a pin simply by going to your stomach (giving your back) and waiting for tech break. Thats practical suicide in a fight. I train in BJJ, but Im also smart enough to train with the Judo guys at my school so as to train my standup. When the Judo guys want to work on their groundwork- they come to the BJJ classes- its pretty obvious.

 

The reason for this is quite simply the rules of the competition. Judo doesnt reward for improving position on the ground, whereas BJJ gives points for attaining the best positions in a fight. Its the RULES and OBJECTIVES of the two styles that set them apart. No one said the techniques of BJJ are better than Judo, simply because they're all pretty much identical. Its the OBJECTIVES of the two sports that make the difference.

 

I've trained with quality Judo guys, but our games are just like our styles- If I try to stand and trade takedowns with one of the Judokas, im getting tossed all over the place. But on the ground, the fight favors me.

 

As you can see, I actively train in both, so I obviously appreciate Judo, but I certainly dont go over there to train my ground techniques. I give Judo its credit. What I think is happening is people dont want to give BJJ its credit- its groundfighting IS better than Judo's- just as Judo's standup is better than BJJ's.

 

If every BJJ'er admits that Judo guys have better takedowns, why cant Judo players simply admit that BJJ guys have better ground skills? No one is saying one is better than the other. Indeed, Judo is where BJJ starts, and BJJ is where Judo ends.

[WolverineGuy]

If you've got judo guys that don't think about choking through your jaw, then they don't know what they are doing. I take on pure judo guys all the time, and I've taken on some pretty good BJJ guys. The only major difference is their plan of attack. Neither one is really better or worse, just different. And before you say that I'm a novice, I've been grappling for a long time, and I've studied BOTH. BJJ is great, I'm not knocking it. In fact, almost anyonethat's been here a while will tell you I'm the one defending BJJ all the time. But to say that Judo doesn't teach enough on the ground, or that they concentrate too much on standing is a very ignorant statement.

[Sho-ju]

The rules in Judo are sport oriented whereas the rules in BJJ are oriented more towards a fight.

 

Not in modern sport jujitsu. As time goes on we see fewer and fewer submissions from jujitsuka. People get the points they need and then 'lay and pray' that they don't get subed.

 

I don't agree that judo is equal on the ground, but the judo world is getting back to its roots and we will see good things in the future.

[Sho-ju]

PS: When I roll with BJJer's I like to start standing, toss them a few times (real hard) and then go to the ground. I study both and use what I can from each. In judo I like newaza.

[Gumbi]

First off, the reason why we're seeing fewer and fewer submissions in sport BJJ is because more and more qualified instructors are arising- which leads to more students being trained under black belt leve fighters- in short, people are getting better, although I do agree that more people hold on for the win now than in the past.

 

Its not that Judo doesnt teach enough on the ground, or that it teaches too much standing- indeed it has a nice blend between the two. In a 2 hour Judo class, you generally spend about 30 minutes on ground work, 90 on standup- thats a nice blend. The ONLY reason that BJJ leads to better ground fighters is because in a 2 hour class, you're pretty much working on ground fighting techniques for the whole 2 hours.

 

BJJ is groundfighting to the extreme- if you put a BJJ fighter against a Judoka who have both been training for the same amount of time, the BJJ'er will win on the ground everytime. Three or four classes of Judo for this practicioner (if according to the ratio of ground/standup work I mentioned before) are needed to match the time of one BJJ class. Lets also not forget that the BJJ fighter is going to have a wider arsenal of techniques as well.

 

Like I said, Judo will make you a good groundfighter- there no doubt about it. Its not that Judo doesnt do enough ground work, but more that BJJ just does too much. Know what Im saying?

[Sorynn]

A few things I would like to add.

 

My hapkido school has some ground defense in the curiculum, but it is not focused on until around the 3rd or 2nd gup. In other words, not until someone has been studing a good long time. Other kwans may be different, but I doubt it.

 

There are many things that a quality hapkido program will teach, but I do not think it can compete with bjj for groundwork. That is why I started taking some bjj on the side two months ago.

 

I agree with Gumbi's comparison of judo and bjj. I studied judo on and off through junior high and highschool. If others focused on mat work 99% of the time, I would expect them to be better than me on the ground. That is just a function of their training focus.

[WolverineGuy]

First off, the reason why we're seeing fewer and fewer submissions in sport BJJ is because more and more qualified instructors are arising- which leads to more students being trained under black belt leve fighters- in short, people are getting better, although I do agree that more people hold on for the win now than in the past.

 

Its not that Judo doesnt teach enough on the ground, or that it teaches too much standing- indeed it has a nice blend between the two. In a 2 hour Judo class, you generally spend about 30 minutes on ground work, 90 on standup- thats a nice blend. The ONLY reason that BJJ leads to better ground fighters is because in a 2 hour class, you're pretty much working on ground fighting techniques for the whole 2 hours.

 

BJJ is groundfighting to the extreme- if you put a BJJ fighter against a Judoka who have both been training for the same amount of time, the BJJ'er will win on the ground everytime. Three or four classes of Judo for this practicioner (if according to the ratio of ground/standup work I mentioned before) are needed to match the time of one BJJ class. Lets also not forget that the BJJ fighter is going to have a wider arsenal of techniques as well.

 

Like I said, Judo will make you a good groundfighter- there no doubt about it. Its not that Judo doesnt do enough ground work, but more that BJJ just does too much. Know what Im saying?

 

When you say it like this, that's more accurate. Its all in the wording on the forums, since we can't see facial expressions or hear the inflections of the voice. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that a BJJ fighter would have a significantly bigger variety of techniques, the focus time that BJJ spends on the ground leads to a specialization you can't get from Judo.