Ki & Aikido

[JerryLove]

It's rather hilarious. The christian group's challenge is just absurd, and it's also a scheme.

He sets the requirements of proof, and he judges wheather it's been met. Randi does the same.

 

I don't know what Randi would do with something absurdly demonsterable (as I've said, if I can reliably put out candles, I'll go try for it), but anything less than that and I doubt highly it would be accepted.

 

In short, I would have to do what is being done on Hovnid, and take Randi to court.

[thaiboxerken]

I doubt that you can know if someone is going to attack you if you don't hear or see them first. Unless they are touching you, in which you can use your sense of touch.

 

The person pushing the other people can be attributed to body mechanics PLUS the other 60 people believing that they will be pushed. Also, hands on the hips doesn't adequately transfer the force of those 60 people into the one old guy. If it did, the guy in front of the old guy would certainly be in a heck of alot of pain from the compression and sustain some serious injury.

 

I suggest a better demonstration of this "Ki". Have the 60 people pull a rope that is tied around the old guy's waist. That will adequately transfer the force of the 60. If his "Ki" is real, he should be able to pull all 60 people. Or if he is to remain stationary, then the 60 should not be able to budge him.

[thaiboxerken]

It's rather hilarious. The christian group's challenge is just absurd, and it's also a scheme. He sets the requirements of proof, and he judges wheather it's been met. Randi does the same.

 

This is false. Randi and the claimant BOTH come up with the requirements of the controls/ test and proof. The test is made up in such a way that no judgement is required, the results must be self evident. Perhaps you haven't read the rules of Randi's challenge, if you did, you would know this.

I don't know what Randi would do with something absurdly demonsterable (as I've said, if I can reliably put out candles, I'll go try for it), but anything less than that and I doubt highly it would be accepted.

 

Yes, what you claim has to be determined to be paranormal by Randi to be accepted. What kinds of things can only a practitioner of Ki can do?

In short, I would have to do what is being done on Hovnid, and take Randi to court.

 

Hovind didn't go to court regarding his challenge, he filed bankruptcy for something totally unrelated to his challenge. I only mentioned the bankruptcy because it shows that Hovind does not have the money he claims to have. His challenge is also unfalsiable and absurd.

 

Randi's challenge is easy. If you think you can levitate using chi, then do it. If you do, you win. If you can put out candles using only your mind, do it and you win. However, if you try to cheat, then you lose.

[JerryLove]

This is false. Randi and the claimant BOTH come up with the requirements of the controls/ test and proof. The test is made up in such a way that no judgement is required, the results must be self evident. Perhaps you haven't read the rules of Randi's challenge, if you did, you would know this.

 

Would you care to explain the difference.

 

1. I make the rule: We will both bring quarters.

 

2. "We" make the rule, but I won't agree to any rule but "we both bring quarters".

 

What's the difference?

 

It's unclear to me how you can be a skeptic and gullible at the same time.

 

Besides, if he is concerned about it, he needs only discard it in pre-testing:

 

In all cases, applicant will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test. To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test, and this has eliminated the need for formal testing in those cases.

 

Not a single person has been "accepted" to actual make rules and test with a 3rd party... all were ignored, at their own expense, by Randi's people.

 

And submitting an application proscribes you from suing him for anything related to it (such as false advertising or fraud).

Yes, what you claim has to be determined to be paranormal by Randi to be accepted. What kinds of things can only a practitioner of Ki can do?

 

I'm not aware of anything only a trained person can do... same with any other skill.

Hovind didn't go to court regarding his challenge, he filed bankruptcy for something totally unrelated to his challenge.

I did not claim that was why he filed bankrupsy... however further investigation fails to corroborate that he was sued over a failure to pay-out.

Randi's challenge is easy. If you think you can levitate using chi, then do it. If you do, you win. If you can put out candles using only your mind, do it and you win.

As I said before: when and if I can do that, I most certainly will. I've repeatedly said that anything less than that will get apologized away. You seem to be agreeing with me while arguing with me.

I suggest a better demonstration of this "Ki". Have the 60 people pull a rope that is tied around the old guy's waist. That will adequately transfer the force of the 60. If his "Ki" is real, he should be able to pull all 60 people.

 

I find it a good demonstration of root (though 60 people seems silly). It's easier to sink pressure into you than pressur pulling up (much like it's easier for a 150lbs guy to liff 200lbs than to pull down 200lbs of pressure).

 

Personally, i don't see it as much of a qi demo.

[thaiboxerken]

1. I make the rule: We will both bring quarters.

 

2. "We" make the rule, but I won't agree to any rule but "we both bring quarters".

 

What's the difference?

 

Do you have any evidence that this sort of thing happens with the challenge? It's my understanding from both Randi and Challengers that this is not what happens. In fact, when Randi and Sylvia Browne were on Larry King Live they both came up with criteria for a test and no such thing happened. You make accusations and assumptions with no substantiation.

It's unclear to me how you can be a skeptic and gullible at the same time.

 

I'm hardly gullible, you are the one that believes there is an immeasurable energy that resides in all living things, not me.

I'm not aware of anything only a trained person can do... same with any other skill.

 

So,that's a no. Ok.

I did not claim that was why he filed bankrupsy... however further investigation fails to corroborate that he was sued over a failure to pay-out.

 

No one made that claim.

As I said before: when and if I can do that, I most certainly will. I've repeatedly said that anything less than that will get apologized away. You seem to be agreeing with me while arguing with me.

 

False, you are simply making excuses and keeping your claims somewhat vague and "mysterious". You claim ki is real, but you have no evidence. Just your own experiences and beliefs, right?

I find it a good demonstration of root (though 60 people seems silly). It's easier to sink pressure into you than pressur pulling up (much like it's easier for a 150lbs guy to liff 200lbs than to pull down 200lbs of pressure).

 

Personally, i don't see it as much of a qi demo.

 

Neither do I.

[aikidokid]

I doubt that you can know if someone is going to attack you if you don't hear or see them first. Unless they are touching you, in which you can use your sense of touch.

 

This is where you are totally wrong through lack of experience. Because you have not experienced it, you believe it not to be true. That is a closed mind if ever there was one.

 

This is part of our practise. Like I said, go and watch a Ki Aikido lesson.

 

A lot of people seem to think that it is easy to push over a large amount of people, but when asked if they have ever tried, I get no comment.

though 60 people seems silly

It was 66 people actually. Why does that seem silly? Genuine question.

[thaiboxerken]

This is where you are totally wrong through lack of experience. Because you have not experienced it, you believe it not to be true. That is a closed mind if ever there was one.

 

I'm open to evidence. Can you do this? Do you know anyone that can? It's worth one million dollars.

This is part of our practise. Like I said, go and watch a Ki Aikido lesson.

 

I saw Copperfield walk through the Great Wall of China. Does that mean he really can turn intangible? It's part of your practice, so I will guess that you mean you can actually do this feat. Are you sure you're not using touch, hearing and eyesite? This can be tested, you know.

A lot of people seem to think that it is easy to push over a large amount of people, but when asked if they have ever tried, I get no comment.

 

Yes, I can do the trick. Can your old guy do the feat I described with the rope? This would take bodymechanics and force dispersion out of the equation.

It was 66 people actually. Why does that seem silly? Genuine question.

 

It's a silly trick with one or 100 people or more. Simply because the trick is to deal with only the first guy, all the people behind him fall because of domino effect coupled with a belief.

[aikidokid]

I'm open to evidence. Can you do this?

 

Yes I can most of the time, and I am only 4th dan. Those that are higher grade and who have practised longer than me can do it every time.

 

thaiboxerken:

 

You call me gulible, but by your own admission, all your evidence you talk about with regards to Ki being false, and all of the links you posted earlier are all you can go on. Other peoples words.

 

You have no experience to talk of. Yes I know you think it's all 'trickery' but you haven't even experienced this 'trickery' first hand.

 

In my mind that makes you gulible, because you believe other people unconditionally.

 

No doubt you will come back with more negative comments, but are they your own, or what you have read somewhere?

[JerryLove]

In fact, when Randi and Sylvia Browne were on Larry King Live they both came up with criteria for a test and no such thing happened. You make accusations and assumptions with no substantiation.

 

And you just called your own source a liar, as Randi has stated, on his website, that no one has passed pre-testing to qualify.

I'm hardly gullible, you are the one that believes there is an immeasurable energy that resides in all living things, not me.

Can you point me to where I have made that claim? I don't believe that I have.

 

Perhaps it is this revisionism that is to blame for the paradoxial position you have taken?

No one made that claim.

I made that claim, though not in this thread. I've been unable to support it and so retract it as unconfirmed.

False, you are simply making excuses and keeping your claims somewhat vague and "mysterious". You claim ki is real, but you have no evidence. Just your own experiences and beliefs, right?

 

I've claimed the ability to perform a specific task. I have performed experimentation to establish to myself that I could. I do not know of others who have repeated my experiment, though I know of others with this skill.

 

I have been neither vague nor mysterious in my claim. I have offered no explanation for how it works as I have no knowledge of how it works, only how to do it.

I'm open to evidence. Can you do this? Do you know anyone that can? It's worth one million dollars.

 

Again, I doubt it. How would you test for it? How do yo urule out things like "felt the vibration of him moving"? If, indeed, he's working off intent (most people that do this exercise do), then it would be quite possible for someone to fool him by masking intent (which is easy to do unintentionally when "testing" rather than actually wanting to attack).

It's part of your practice, so I will guess that you mean you can actually do this feat. Are you sure you're not using touch, hearing and eyesite? This can be tested, you know.

 

I would imagine that two are easy to rule out... and I recommend that he work on doing it with his eyes closed and no contact... hearing (and worse, feel) can be harder... perhaps with loud background noise and other moving non-attacking people?

 

It would be fun to experiment with.

 

I have an aqaintence who says he can catch a dollar bill without contact while blindfolded... I'm hoping to test his claim in December when he's next in state.

It's a silly trick with one or 100 people or more. Simply because the trick is to deal with only the first guy, all the people behind him fall because of domino effect coupled with a belief.

 

I agree that there is a point long before 100 where it becomes silly. After about two I wouldn't bother.

 

Perhaps if we gave a bunch of people a big stick (like a battering ram)... that would let them exert force as a group. (ponders... I wonder how that would turn out)

[thaiboxerken]

Yes I can most of the time, and I am only 4th dan. Those that are higher grade and who have practised longer than me can do it every time.

 

I doubt it, but feel free to apply for the JREF challenge. I'm sure you and Randi can come up way to factor out sound, site and touch.

thaiboxerken:

 

You call me gulible, but by your own admission, all your evidence you talk about with regards to Ki being false, and all of the links you posted earlier are all you can go on. Other peoples words.

 

What?! No, I'm going off of current knowledge of science as well as my own observations. I'm not going off of other people's words.

You have no experience to talk of. Yes I know you think it's all 'trickery' but you haven't even experienced this 'trickery' first hand

 

I don't have to be tricked to know what a trick is.

In my mind that makes you gulible, because you believe other people unconditionally.

 

I'm gullible because I don't believe your claims? Do you even think before you post?

No doubt you will come back with more negative comments, but are they your own, or what you have read somewhere?

 

It's obvious that you have no real confidence in your belief of Ki, so you will do whatever you can to avoid giving actual evidence to support your belief. You want to believe, that's fine with me, whatever keeps you happy. If you want to continue attacking me, Randi and the JREF, then you are way off base, I'm simply a skeptic that doubts your absurd claims.