More bjj vs judo controversy.

[goshinman]

One day when we were all debating about bjj vs (add your own art/style)

 

A guy claimed that the spider guard was invented by bjj masters and was completly new and unique to bjj. Well as a wise old king once said "there ain't nothing new under the sun". Read this article I read on jiu-jitsu.net.

 

 

 

Read the history. Almost everything done in the art of Judo comes from one or more Jiu-jitsu styles which came before. The cliff's notes version: Jigoro Kano developed Judo out of a few Jiu-jitsu styles, like Tenshin Ryu, Fusen Ryu (where we get the groundwork), and Kito Ryu (just to name a few). Judo is a more "sportive" style that combines what Kano felt were the best elements from each of these styles. Please read the history for a complete picture instead of emailing me questions.

 

Nothing New

 

I always hear a lot about "New Moves" from Brazil or the latest techniques … Is this a reality? Yes and No. Yes, because as any art evolves, new variations and set ups are 'discovered'. No, because every single time I hear about a new move or counter, it isn't long before I see it in an old Judo book, or as I did recently, in The Kosen Judo tapes. Before I start talking about these tapes, I really want everyone to understand that I had a Black Belt in a traditional style of Jiu-jitsu and took it off to study Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (in which I am currently a Brown Belt). I felt that the 'old' style I was practicing was lacking certain dimensions and the evolution that the Brazilian style had (like comparing a Model T to a Mustang). We did all the same moves like the Triangle (sankau-jime), Armbar (juji-gatame), chokes, pins, throws, etc … But because of Kano's heavy influence and focus on stand up training instead of ground work (remember that very few styles of Jiu-jitsu put such a heavy emphasis on Newaza (groundwork) as BJJ or Fusen Ryu did), the emphasis was on setting up throws and taking people down. Its just the emphasis and I felt that since we were all trying to get each other to the ground anyway, what happened there (once on the ground) was more important, so I switched to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu; this was just a personal preference. Now you have to look at this from both sides: since the emphasis in BJJ is groundwork, and in Judo, the throw, I would bet my last dollar that a BJJ Black Belt vs. Judo Black belt match will begin with the Judo player getting the takedown. But it will end with the BJJ Black Belt getting the submission (that is, of course if there is no time limit). So it is simple a matter of prioritizing, not that the techniques aren't a part of each art. A Judo player has more set ups standing, a BJJ player has more on the ground. The BJJ guy knows a load of takedowns and throws by Black Belt, but doesn't know how to set them up as well and vice versa. It is the set up that really makes techniques happen at a high level. I have seen all kinds of people do moves, like Frank Mir and his modified Americana from the guard. I've been doing this for years and learned it in a 'classical' Jiu-jitsu class, not BJJ. But because not many people saw it (or the first time they had seen it was in the UFC), it became the "Frank Mir Armlock" on the Internet the next day. This happens to me all the time. Guys come into my academy all the time with "new moves" that I learned 10 years ago. The triangle choke was introduced to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu from an old Judo book (read the history on this site, please). All of this is quite evident once you read Best Judo by Isao Inokkuma and Nobuyuki Sato, which was written in 1979 (this book covers everything considered by most as uniquely Brazilian, like the Omoplata).

 

Like many others, I thought that in addition to the set-ups, BJJ did have a few things that were truly "new". I thought this right up until I saw the Kosen Judo tapes. I watched as everything I thought had been invented by some Brazilian champion was demonstrated on this old tape from before their time. It started with something as simple as a half guard pass that I learned only a few years ago from a Brazilian friend and purple belt who had just been shown 'the latest moves'. I would then respond with, "Well, DeLaRiva guard is pretty unique to BJJ!". Nope. Low and behold, there are two old-as-hell Japanese guys doing sweeps from what I had always known as DeLaRiva Guard. I'm not kidding. Then, I thought, "Spider Guard, there's now wa …." WRONG. These old bastards were right there on my TV doing the sweep from spider guard where you set up the bicep lock with one leg, your shin across his belly, roll the opponent over and get the bicep lock (chave de biceps) from the top. Unreal. They were doing it with all the sophistication and grace of a 25-year-old Mundial Champion (remember, these guys look ancient, so all that crap about Judo guys using too much strength goes right out the window). Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't start dusting off my Japanese Jiu-jitsu black belt or anything. I still wasn't seeing the kind of set ups that you see on Mario Sperry's Master Series or a Michael Jen seminar. The sequencing was simply not there. HOWEVER, there were some pretty killer set ups and entries that had me leaning close to the TV like Rainman watching Judge Wappner. I think it will be hard for the average beginner to catch these fine details, especially because the whole thing is in Japanese, but believe me, there are loads of little details, tricks, and secrets here that had me nodding with approval and grinning the entire time, the rest of the time, I was taking notes.

 

The tapes are available on the web from a few sources, like the one I listed above, but are not available (to my knowledge) in an English translation. They are divided in four categories, but since the language is not my own and such a wide variety of moves are covered, I'm not exactly sure about the specific organization. Because I know most of the moves in Japanese, it wasn't entirely confusing to me, but I think the average viewer will have to keep his eyes peeled and finger on the pause & rewind buttons.

 

In conclusion, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is a great art and one of the only styles (of Jiu-jitsu) to keep the real (or Jiu-jitsu at its 'golden age' of development) Jiu-jitsu alive. The marketing strategy of the Gracie family is brilliant and we all owe a world of gratitude to them for preserving (and of course, adding to) such a great art (the way it should be practiced), but not for inventing it.

 

Ok let the flaming and style bashing begin....AGAIN

[Treebranch]

The important thing to notice with Judo is that if you adjust your throws slightly you can actually throw your opponent onto their head. Depending on what surface you are fighting on, it will knock them out or damage them severly. Judo throws were altered Jujutsu throws which were not meant to be nice. Judo can be extremely lethal and much more efficient than BJJ. However BJJ is dominant on the ground if they can survive the throw.

[Sho-ju]

I knocked a guy out in the street with suki nage, once he was in the air I drove his head into the lawn and followed up with a mount. (He attacked me with a hockey stick, were Canadian, eh.)

 

http://www.balstajujutsu.com/foton/AvancGrad20011217/PelleSukiNageStefanA.JPG

[Beer-monster]

Just to follow from what Treebranch said about Judo throws potentially being nasty.

 

Something to remember about the throws we see often is that they are being performed on someone who know how to fall correctly and with minimal damage. Take a person without that ability and most throws are brutal (good example with the Suki Nage Sho-ju )

 

In TJJ one of my favourite throws is Kuki Nage (air throw). Its simple and effortless, though occasional hard to apply. I admit it is also considered a very pretty throw (I know you shouldn't judge a technique by it appearence but we all have to acknowledge the aesthetics occasionally take the flying juji gatame).

 

The reason it looks so pretty is that when you throw a class mate he immediately goes in a flipping break fall (what we call an over the belt or peg leg fall) and it looks great. Do the move on someone who can't do the flip and what you get is you grabbing their head and slamming them face first into the floor. Not as pretty but very nasty and painful.

 

Kote Gaeshi is another good example. Looks good, can be done without hurting if they can fall from it. If not, they drop to the floor with a mangled wrist and twisted arm joints.

 

Just something I thought I would add, feel free to ignore me

[Beer-monster]

Just to follow from what Treebranch said about Judo throws potentially being nasty.

 

Something to remember about the throws we see often is that they are being performed on someone who know how to fall correctly and with minimal damage. Take a person without that ability and most throws are brutal (good example with the Suki Nage Sho-ju )

 

In TJJ one of my favourite throws is Kuki Nage (air throw). Its simple and effortless, though occasional hard to apply. I admit it is also considered a very pretty throw (I know you shouldn't judge a technique by it appearence but we all have to acknowledge the aesthetics occasionally take the flying juji gatame).

 

The reason it looks so pretty is that when you throw a class mate he immediately goes in a flipping break fall (what we call an over the belt or peg leg fall) and it looks great. Do the move on someone who can't do the flip and what you get is you grabbing their head and slamming them face first into the floor. Not as pretty but very nasty and painful.

 

Kote Gaeshi is another good example. Looks good, can be done without hurting if they can fall from it. If not, they drop to the floor with a mangled wrist and twisted arm joints.

 

Just something I thought I would add, feel free to ignore me

[Reklats]

Throwing is damaging, but consider this:

 

I was part of a group of people that would do medium contact sparring during this last school year. There was one big guy we nick named "Para-military", he was good on his feet, and was very good with throws. A couple times when we were just goofing around he would effortlessly transition into seoi-nage and toss me on my back. Consequently, I changed my strategy against him. I would immediately go for a clinch or even bear hug, then just pull him down on top of me. If he ended up in my guard, my butterfly guard, or even my half guard, it was all good, as I was much better on the ground than him

[Beer-monster]

*nods*

 

That's the reason I feel everyone should learn a little ne-waza. Coz even if you're really good at striking or throwing, if a guy knows what he is doing and wants you to meet the floor with him. You will.

[Sho-ju]

[mikS]

Even throws that are never damaging on the mat such as o soto gari or uchi mata can be BRUTAL against an untrained streetfighter falling onto contrete.

[mikS]

Even throws that are never damaging on the mat such as o soto gari or uchi mata can be BRUTAL against an untrained streetfighter falling onto contrete.