Tough one...what do you guys think?

[Karateka]

Within the martial arts, it is customary to bow. This shows respect to others and shows humility within ones self. I think another aspect of it is the fact that though it may not be religious, some families do not wish you to bow. Although I do bow in my Karate class and in other such related events, as a Sikh, I have been told not to bow to anyone other than my Guru or God. He may have been brought up with the family tradition of not bowing, referring to the first case of this thread. I wouldn't get to angry about it, to be frank, let the master get angry if he wants. You should just go with it

[JEM618]

Why do people shake hands? Why do people bow?

 

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

 

Ooops, that’s too far…

 

Anyway origin of the handshake: When meeting strangers – the handshake was used to show peace, an amicable meeting, i.e., your hand was empty: you were not holding a weapon… sword, gun, knife etc. (That’s why the right hand was extended, it’s the primary weapon hand for most) Used by knights and cowboys.

 

The bow has two interpretations:

 

1st subjects were not allowed to gaze into the eyes of the emperor or high ranking official, bowing ensured the gaze was averted. Shows subservience, exposes the neck.

 

2nd, bowing averts the gaze from the person you meet, leaving you open, showing trust and also showing you mean no harm. (I bow and I can’t see what you are doing, you could attack me but I trust you. I can’t attack you from a vulnerable position so I mean no harm.) This is akin to the handshake.

 

HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGEON!!!!

 

If you watch westerns you’ll see American Indians raise their right hand and say ‘How’ for a greeting – showing they are or want to be friendly – SEE, I have no weapon! Let’s smoke the peace pipe.

 

Trivia: origin of the ‘toast’.

 

In medieval times it was often difficult to assassinate someone; storm the castle, kill the guards, climb the tower, break down the door….

 

So, poison became one of the tools of the trade. Kings had ‘food tasters’ human guinea pigs…. The king would say, ‘Yeah, go ahead start without me…..’ and if the food taster didn’t drop dead, well, the king would eat his fill.

 

Anyway, you might want to kill or have someone killed by putting poison in their wine glass (or grog) and not their food. The toast was used to make sure everyone got a dose. Glasses were raised and you would pour some of your glass in mine, I’d pour some in yours. That way, if you put poison in my glass, you’d wind up drinking some, too. Today, the toast remains a symbol of mutual trust, or distrust, depending on which way you look at it.

 

HTH

[Karateka]

I disagree that bowing has nothing to do with religion. Bowing shows that you have subsurviance to God. To show that you only bow to God shows you only serve him, and no other master.

[JEM618]

I disagree that bowing has nothing to do with religion. Bowing shows that you have subservience to God. To show that you only bow to God shows you only serve him, and no other master.

 

I know that bowing in religion has more significance.

 

Missed my point - Bowing in martial arts has nothing to do with religion.

 

Bowing in martial arts simply shows courtesy and respect.

 

Maybe someone should explain the meaning if the bow to him; that it has no religious connotations, then go from there.

[ninjanurse]

This gentleman would not be studying in my dojo.

 

It is respect, and nothing more.

 

[JEM618]

This gentleman would not be studying in my dojo.

 

It is respect, and nothing more.

 

 

I agree with you but I didn't wanna start a war.

 

If you don't want to follow dojo etiquette go play a sport or take part in an activity in which it is not required.

 

Of course, the sensei that has a business to run is caught in the middle it's a double edged sword. (pardon the pun)

 

You get some guy who doesn't want to bow and and you tell him he has to and he gets a lawyer and sues on some civil right thing. (In which case he would lose but bad press is bad for business.)

 

You get some guy who doesn't want to bow and and you tell him doesn't have to and you leave youself open to, 'If he doesn't have to why should I? or 'I don't want to do (fill in the blank) - You don't make Mr. XX bow, 'Why do I have to (fill in the blank)?'

[awayupthere]

I may-be new to MA and this Forum BUT i am not new to this world.

 

And I for one think that if you cant do a simple thing like bow (which in my way thinking is better then a hand shake) then you should find something else to do with your time (and money).

 

Think about. If you go into a place of worship or even some sort of club and dont follow the RULES you will most likely be asked to follow the rules or leave.

 

Dont get me wrong here if your DOJO THINKS this not bowing thing is OK.

 

then I guess thats alright.

 

But where does it stop?

[Karateka]

Must respect to others be shown in bow form or can it not be shown in other ways? A bow is simply a movement, its the connotation it has to others. Can't this meaning behind the bow be expressed in other ways? To me, the importance lies in the respect that they give. The package a gift is wrapped up in doesn't take away from the gift.

[Drunken Monkey]

um, because traditionally the bow is used in the culture from which the art comes from?

 

hmm, do you have to call you superior officer sir?

 

do you have to salute him?

 

same thing.

 

the bow in martial arts has no religious connotations, it is just part of the tradition.

 

any such idea is brought to it by you.

 

it is you who sees the bow as being religious.

 

you just can't see that it isn't religious and no matter how much EVERYONE tells you otherwise, you will not listen.

[Mart]

Karateka the bow does not conflict with religion. Not bowing down to anyone other than God is a metaphor.

 

also, im worried by your signature.

 

Never kick a guy that is on the floor. If he is donw properly its over.

 

All to often nowadays people like to play stompsies on peoples heads leaving them with massive brain damage.

 

Unless the guy has killed a loved one or something you should, IMHO, look very carefully to see when the fight is over then stop.