Judo newaza

[goshinman]

I was doing some research on the history of Japanese jujitsu and Judo and came up with some interestinig facts on the evoulution of judo ne waza. Remember that famous match between the old jujitsu masters and Kano's judo students? Well actually there were several matches in the old days. One extremely important one occured about 1905 between the Kodokan and the Fusen ryu school of jujitsu. The Fusen ryu was not a nihon school, rather it was created about the same time as Judo. They were the first club to beat the Kodokan since the tournament against the Tokyo police Jiu Jitsuka in the famous tournament that made Judo's reputation. The Kodokan was beaten badly, losing all but one match. Why? The Fusen ryu were the first style of Jiu Jitsu to emphasis a style of ground fighting that looked very similar to wrestling in many respects. They were the pioneers of newaza. Before that time, the Kodokan, like the koryu schools, applied most katame waza (grappling techniques) standing or as a direct followup to a throw. This type of grappling, along with nage waza (throwing), atemi waza, and weapons defense and techniques (Kano was a certified master of, I believe, 12 traditional battlefield weapons, and Jo Jitsu (art of the staff) was taught at the Kodokan until the 1920s) made up the primary syllabus of the original Kodokan. Grappling around on the mat, transitioning between position, fighting for subs, etc. had no place in the old Jiu Jitsu because it was a battlefield art, meant to be a form of empty-handed fighting for when the warrior lost his weapon (usually the katana). But Kano was open-minded and always looking to improve, so after seeing his Kodokan beaten by this newaza, he did the only logical thing: he asked the Fusen ryu masters to train himself and his top men in newaza. The Fusen ryu consented, and newaza became a major part of Judo. Now, the actual katame waza techniques where largely the same ones the Kodokan had always used. Their application to what we today would think of as a "ground fight" were the innovation.

 

Judo also included spine locks, leg locks, neck cranks, and throws that are preformed in conjunction with arm locks. All of which have been banned in sport Judo. Some judo clubs still teach hese techniques but not very many. Another interesting tidbit was an old video (1930 I belive) on judo that featured old masters showing several guard positions, one of which looks eerily similar to the BJJ spider guard. This was information that for various reasons was all but lost and only a handful of student had access to advanced ne waza. Can you guess who one of them was? Maeda.

[delta1]

"The Kodokan was beaten badly, losing all but one match. Why? The Fusen ryu were the first style of Jiu Jitsu to emphasis a style of ground fighting that looked very similar to wrestling in many respects."

 

I'm strainin' my brain here, but in that competition didn't the Fusen Ryu just get down on the floor, forcing their opponents to fight in a range or phase that they were unacustomed to?

[WolverineGuy]

Subsequently, Fusen Ryu practically disappeared. The ground game began to dominate judo for a while, until Kano made rule changes to favor the standing throws again. I've read this one too.

[delta1]

OK, I looked it up. At the time (@1900-1905) judo as taught at kodokan was primarily a throwing art. The head of Fusen-Ryu was Mataemon Tanabe, a trained ground fighter who taught ground fighting as the primary emphasis of his school. A challenge was issued between the two schools, a common thing at the time. In the actual match, the Fusen Ryu students took the match to the ground by immediately sitting down. The kodokan students didn't know how to fight there, and were relatively easily submitted. Apparently they couldn't just attack the grounded fighter without themselves going to the ground, because that woul make them appear to be thugs.

 

Kano did study from Tanabe after that, and incorporated a ground game into his system. According to Renzo Gracie, it may have been Tanabe's willingness to share his knowlege and skills that caused his school to eventually close while Judo flourished. It also caused his contributions to be largely overlooked in history, except that a judoka named Mitsuyo Maeda took his approach to Brazil. There he faught many all out challenge matches, refining his skills as well as an understanding of phases of combat. He also took on a student named Carlos Gracie, which is probably how Renzo Gracie came to be writing about the history of jujitsu in the first place.

 

Any how, for some reason the fact that the Fusen-Ryu guys won by just droping to the floor stuck in my mind. So I got a book and checked it out. Pretty interesting.

[SevenStar]

fusen is stull around... look into kosen judo. It's not as big as kodokan, but it's out there.

 

As for the fusen guys dropping to the ground - that's possible. BJJ guys to that to this day against judoka - it's called sitting guard or jumping guard. They do this in order to get to the ground safely.

 

The leg and spinelocks are still in judo, I've got a list of them all. They aren't taught to underbelts because they have been banned, but some schools will still teach them to their blackbelts. Same thing goes for atemi waza.

 

There's speculation about kano's true intent of judo. Some say that he never meant it to be the huge sport that it became, but did want a safer means of training, which is why he was able to incorporate sparring, consequently beating the non sparring jujutsu guys. It's my understanding that at least one jujutsu guy was killed. Back to the speculation, they say it was the government that forced judo to become a sport.

[WolverineGuy]

Kosen judo is the closest relative of Fusen Ryu, but its not quite the same.

[goshinman]

fusen is stull around... look into kosen judo. It's not as big as kodokan, but it's out there.

 

As for the fusen guys dropping to the ground - that's possible. BJJ guys to that to this day against judoka - it's called sitting guard or jumping guard. They do this in order to get to the ground safely.

 

The leg and spinelocks are still in judo, I've got a list of them all. They aren't taught to underbelts because they have been banned, but some schools will still teach them to their blackbelts. Same thing goes for atemi waza.

 

There's speculation about kano's true intent of judo. Some say that he never meant it to be the huge sport that it became, but did want a safer means of training, which is why he was able to incorporate sparring, consequently beating the non sparring jujutsu guys. It's my understanding that at least one jujutsu guy was killed. Back to the speculation, they say it was the government that forced judo to become a sport.

 

There is another style of Judo called Taiki ryu judo that has alot of the banned techniques as well. But it doesn't have all 67 throws reconized by the kodokan.

 

Can you give me more info on the list you have of the banned techniques? Thanks in advance.

[SevenStar]

atama hisigi - Head Crush

 

gyaku hisigi - Reverse Crush

 

kesa gatame kubi hisigi - Scarf Hold Neck Crush

 

kubi hisigi - Neck Crush

 

kuzure kesa kubi hisigi - Scarf Hold Neck Crush

 

tate hisigi - Standing Neck Crush

 

tomoe hisigi - Rolling Neck Crush

 

these are the seven illegal spine locks. In addition, heel hooks and any other leg lock are illegal. as are wrist locks. There are at least four wrist locks and six or seven leg locks.

[goshinman]

atama hisigi - Head Crush

 

gyaku hisigi - Reverse Crush

 

kesa gatame kubi hisigi - Scarf Hold Neck Crush

 

kubi hisigi - Neck Crush

 

kuzure kesa kubi hisigi - Scarf Hold Neck Crush

 

tate hisigi - Standing Neck Crush

 

tomoe hisigi - Rolling Neck Crush

 

these are the seven illegal spine locks. In addition, heel hooks and any other leg lock are illegal. as are wrist locks. There are at least four wrist locks and six or seven leg locks.

 

I would really like to get some info on these techniques so if you could please give me a source so that I can check them out. Thanks again in advance.

[Sho-ju]

I've seen tomonage done with an armbar, very slick and painful. Try the https://www.judoinfo.com ask in the forums.