Sasori_Te Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I recently had a discussion with a new colleague of mine. He's a 5th dan in Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu. His dojo practices 119 (that I know of) kata, including weapons forms. How could you ever have anything more than a superficial understanding of the katas and their techniques with this many kata?He knows all of the kata movements and claims to know the bunkai ( I can buy that, maybe ) and the oyo as well. He's only been training 17 years (though up to 20 hours per week on some weeks, by his estimation). I personally think quality over quantity wins out any day of the week. What do you folks think? When I brouth these points up to him, he said that he bet that any of his kata would look better than any of mine. I told him maybe but looking good isn't why I train. Any way, thoughts? Opinions? A block is a strike is a lock is a throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karateka Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I could believe the fact that he knows many Kata. 119 does seem to be a lot but knowing the Bunkai of all of them is pretty easy since so many moves flow together. I am curious to know if he only knows 1 form of Bunkai for each kata, as I was always taught that as one advances, they should know 3-4 different Bunkai for teaching purposes. If all he knows are basic moves, then perhaps he need to go back and re-evaluate so that he can learn more about them. I agree, quality over quantity does win but his knowing that many Kata is exceptional. As for him going into the argument that "his karate would look better" that's not a valid argument to me. There are many things that look good and work like *. "Never hit a man while he's down; kick him, its easier"Sensei Ron Bagley (My Sensei) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G95champ Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 No way a person can remember and do well 119 kata. LOL. Shotoakn has 26-29 depending on your association. We currently practice 19 every advanced class. My teacher has been in Shotokan for 30 years and is a 4th DAN and very good IMO. We are constantly correcting or fixing moves in kata. Not saying its not possilbe to train that many they maynot be very long but if they are anything like Shotokan kata there not very good. How do you keep them seperate???? (General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramymensa Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I think they are way too many. The twenty and some katas in Shotokan seem many, but 119 are indeed a burden. I'm almost convinced this great number won't do any good in the proficiency aspect regarding katas and bunkai. But whatever floats their boat ... World Shotokan Karate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Warlock Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Sounds like a lot of redundancy going on there. "When you are able to take the keys from my hand, you will be ready to drive." - Shaolin DMV TestIntro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kempocos Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I agree with White Warlock 's statement. how many of the weapons Kata are the same useing differant weapons. I also feel that in some styles each major movment has several meanings it would be very diffecult to truley know the oyo and bunkai to 119. The staement of his looking etter than your leans me towrds his arrogance and perhaps exagerating. "If you don't want to get hit while sparring , join the cardio class" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aefibird Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 119 kata? That seems excessive to me. I don't know anything about Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu - how many kata are practiced in that style usually? I'd say that 119 kata is a lot to try and get to grips with, especially for in-depth study. A lot of the traditional Asian karateka studied one or two kata for many years to try and perfect them; 119 kata (even spread out over 17 years) is still a startling amount to try and learn. My instructor is a 5th dan with over 30 years experience and he practices kata every day and we 'only' do 26 kata at my dojo. Just because a kata looks good, doesn't necessarily mean it is good in a real life situation. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the less flashy a technique, chances are the better it will work in a street or even dojo-application situation. By the time you've finished your flashy, fancy technique your opponent has probably got you on the ground and is kicking you in the head with his size 11's. However, if people simply want kata to look good for competition winning purposes... well, that's up to them but it's not what I'd consider to be kata or karate. "Was it really worth it? Only time and death may ever tell..." The Beautiful South - The Rose of My CologneSheffield Steelers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasori_Te Posted April 28, 2004 Author Share Posted April 28, 2004 Well, I would agree with all of you. He claims to know bunkai and many oyo techniques for the kata that he studies. He studies or has studied regularly with some fairly noted Asian masters such as Kanei Mabuni (spelling?) and Kenzo Mabuni, Yuichi Kuda, Teruo Hayashi and Toshishiro Obata. I can't say positively whether or not he has studied with all of these individuals but I know for a fact that his instructor has attained high ranking with each of these individuals. Again I stress that high rank doesn't necessarily mean anything in and of itself. My bottom line point is, how can you have any sort of in depth knowledge with that much redundancy rolling around in your head? He said what someone else said earlier, The movements in most of the kata are similar if not the same. The bunkai is the same for these movements. I then asked him again why it's necessary to study so many kata when you admit yourself that the movements in all of them can be found in 15 to 20 kata. He din't have any easy answers for that question. I believe that he said that his instructor was trying to respect all of his teachers by keeping their kata and teachings in tact as they were taught to him. I still think it's too much. But as was also pointed out earlier, what ever floats his boat. It's definitely not for me. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kotegashiNeo Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 NO way his is completely overloaded! That is an understatement Chojun Miyagi would only teach one kata besides Sanchin depending on body type and other personal details. That kata is all you would train with him and if you wanted to learn any others you would have to learn from other students. The reason being is that kata must become an automated respone because it is full self defense combinations that are quite intricate and require pinpoint accuracy. To have any chance of you using them effectively they must be ingrained to your very sub conscious. If he has that level of understanding of 119 kata he is the supreme grand master of all things and even light cannot escape his powerful gaze. Kisshu fushin oni te hotoke kokoro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aefibird Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 If he has that level of understanding of 119 kata he is the supreme grand master of all things and even light cannot escape his powerful gaze. lol, good one Neo. He must have used The Force to be able to truly understand so many kata. "Was it really worth it? Only time and death may ever tell..." The Beautiful South - The Rose of My CologneSheffield Steelers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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