This Man lived the martial spirit.

[CanuckMA]

You know tommarker, it's sometimes scary how I read your posts and ALWAYS agree with you!

 

On a more personal note, a couople of weeks ago the local contingent of Army Reservists returned from a years tour in Iraq to a hero's welcome. Parade, yellow ribbons on every tree in town (that's a lot of trees here!), partys and celebrations. And you know what? all I could think of that whole day as I watched them roll downb the street in the Welcome Home Parade, was all those Vietnam vets that I served with that came home to virtually nothing.

 

If any of them, and all vets and active service men and women that are reading this...a GREAT BIG THANKS!!! You are appreciated!

 

I agree. 'Nam was stupid. Iraq is highly debatable.

 

BUT don't crap on the people who are sent over there. They do't make the policy.

[Beka]

I agree. 'Nam was stupid. Iraq is highly debatable.

 

BUT don't crap on the people who are sent over there. They do't make the policy.

 

They don't make the policy, and I think it was disrespectful to treat drafted vietnam veterans so terribly. Some people are drawn to the army for a lack of money, a lack of structure, a lack of options. But I lack sympathy for people who join the army in hopes they get to fight. Woo, let's party, lets go kill some people who don't deserve it.

 

Oh, yeah, that's honorable.

 

But at the same time, can I blame people for falling into the propaganda traps? Well, yeah, kinda. If you choose to keep your eyes closed to the truth, then you're still choosing to do the wrong thing.

 

What's the old line about martial arts? That we learn to fight so that we never have to? To me that implies that fighting is deranged and barbaric. Do I see the irony? Of course I do.

[TheDevilAside]

But I lack sympathy for people who join the army in hopes they get to fight.

 

The Army weeds out the ones that do not wish to fight very early on. The military trains you to destroy without question and hesitation for a purpose you believe in, that's the reality of it. And it takes a Lot of courage to do that. However, I lack sympathy for those who join the military and scratch their heads when they're ordered to combat.

 

Pat Tillman willingly gave up a very lucrative lifestyle to fight for what he thought was right. There is no doubt that he was, to one degree or another, a hero.

 

I don't agree with the course of actions that Bush has taken, but I'll be damned if we give the soldiers in Iraq a cold shoulder like we did to the vets of Vietnam.

[delta1]

Beka, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. I'd say it is you who have fallen prey to the propoganda that saturates Berkeley. People do not go into the military just to kill someone, or to harm those who don't deserve it. And you don't understand the martial arts, either. The military, like martial arts training, is there in case we are attacked. Neither is there in the hopes we are attacked, but with the sure knowlege that without some protection we will be attacked. And, when we are attacked, either as individuals or as a nation, we are justified in responding with violence. 9/11 happened, and proved the appeasers and pacifiers to be wrong. This man and others chose to do something positive about it.

 

To dishonor those who fight and give their lives to keep you free is neither courageous nor honorabe. It is the worst kind of cowardice and treason. I'd urge you to look and think for yourself rather than regurgitating the filth that is fed you in Berkeley. Respond as you like to this, I'm not going to get into a political argument here, other than to possibly encourage you to take a more sane and honorable view.

Edited April 25, 2004 by delta1

[TheDevilAside]

The military, like martial arts training, is there in case we are attacked. Neither is there in the hopes we are attacked, but with the sure knowlege that without some protection we will be attacked.

 

I'll second that.

[tommarker]

Before this degenerates into something ugly, let me just say that regardless of your opinion on the war on terror, iraq, etc...

 

Pat, and THOUSANDS died to protect freedom, including the freedom of speech. That Beka can post her opinion publically and without fear of persecution (and I mean REAL persecution, like being dragged into the street and shot, not just people yelling at her) shows just how great this country is.

 

I think it's unfair to portray troops as blood-thirsty kill-happy propaganda-brainwashed savages, just as it would be to portray all people in Berkeley as treehugging, pacifist, pinko, commie scum. It lends to absolutely no productive discussion.

 

Troops don't do their job for the fancy parade and guys like me who buy them drinks when they get home. They do it because protecting the Republic and its freedoms (even the unpopular ones) is their job.

 

George Orwell said (more or less) that "people sleep easy at nights because rough men stand ready to violence on their behalf."

 

"To have peace, you must prepare for war."

 

I would humbly request that we leave our opinions on this war for another thread (preferably on another board) and instead remember a humble man who lead the way.

[TheDevilAside]

And I'll third that

[Beka]

Beka, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. I'd say it is you who have fallen prey to the propoganda that saturates Berkeley. People do not go into the military just to kill someone, or to harm those who don't deserve it. And you don't understand the martial arts, either. The military, like martial arts training, is there in case we are attacked. Neither is there in the hopes we are attacked, but with the sure knowlege that without some protection we will be attacked. And, when we are attacked, either as individuals or as a nation, we are justified in responding with violence. 9/11 happened, and proved the appeasers and pacifiers to be wrong. This man and others chose to do something positive about it.

 

To dishonor those who fight and give their lives to keep you free is neither courageous nor honorabe. It is the worst kind of cowardice and treason. I'd urge you to look and think for yourself rather than regurgitating the filth that is fed you in Berkeley. Respond as you like to this, I'm not going to get into a political argument here, other than to possibly encourage you to take a more sane and honorable view.

 

Okay, first of all, I don't just listen to the protesters who stand on campus yelling things. In fact, I don't like protesting, and I've never even been in one. Second, I get my news from GLOBAL sources, some very very far away from Berkeley, some that your closed mind will probably never lead you to read. Is it so far fetched to think that MAYBE just MAYBE the victims of war aren't even the people who we intended to kill?

 

I'm fine with an army that's there in case we get attacked. The war against Afganistan is a very big maybe, and the war against Iraq is clearly and obviously a big NO. Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, they weren't planning to come after us, the Bush administration LIED to the American people and killed thousands of innocent people, Iraqi civilians and American troops alike. OUR AMERICAN SOLDIERS were sent off to die for no good reason, and somehow that sits well with the war-mongers, and I have yet to figure out why. I personally feel that I support the troops when I say 'please, stop making them die all the time by putting them in places they shouldn't be'. Before you try to say 'oh, but the Iraqi people are so happy now that they are liberated la la la we did them so much good', take a look at the fact that 1) we didn't go into war under the pretenses of saving the Iraqi people. If that were the case, why don't we care about saving the other people worldwide who face similar problems? Because they have nothing to offer us. We want Iraq's natural resources, as well as a good commanding point for promoting an anti-Islamic agenda. 2) If the Iraqi people are so happy we're there, why are there so many attacks on American troops? Why are they trying to kill us if they're so happy?

 

Might I also add that the era under the Taliban, while it was an opressive state, was the first time in decades that Afganistan was in relative peace, and one could go outside with reason enough to believe one won't be shot. To be in a state is a give and take. For some security, you may need to give up other certain personal liberties. I don't think that's the *right* thing, but it is historically the case. If I was living in pre-Taliban, pre-stable government Afganistan, would I wear myself a burka every day to avoid getting blown up? You're darn tootin I would. Furthermore, the Burka was originally *not* a sign of oppression, the Burka was reserved for upper class women to wear. I don't recall the exact reasoning of it off the top of my head, but it was indeed the case. There was a time when people *elected* to wear such clothing, so one cannot say that those articles of the sexist oppressive Taliban regime were there only because the Taliban put them there. Do I think they were some dastardly dudes who should have been deposed? Yes, I do. However, the automatic knee-jerk resonse that 'oh, this is a good thing' is ill-informed. Why am I so well informed? Because sometime, a few years ago, I bothered to read a book. Oh, it doesn't happen too often, because we know what happens when the public becomes educated and aware of the world's events.... terrible terrible things. Look out! She bothers to care!

 

9/11 was a terrible tragedy, but by continuing to support Israel's attacks on Palestinians, by bombing Afganistan, and by starting unnecessary wars on Iraq, we are only asking for more trouble. Right now it seems our current plan of defense against the terrorists is to decimate them. If we drop enough bombs they'll die and then we'll be okay. However, if we let them live, they are just going to get angrier and angrier with the arrogance of the United States of America. If we fight back by resorting to the most immediate response (the blow-up tactic) we are not going to be successful. At least not without punishing millions of innocent people.

 

I have honor and respect for people who do their job to protect this country. I have nothing but respect for World War 2 veterans, as it was perfectly reasonable to think that the Nazis were posing a real threat, seeing as they went invading all over Europe and rounding people up. Nevermind the fact that the United States did nothing for a good long while about the killing of Jews, I don't expect the troops to mobilize on their own. I know it isn't easy to go to war, but if you are indeed doing the right thing, then go for it. I think there may have been a few more dishonest reasons for the country to enter into the war back then, but it was simple to see that there was a real threat not just to other Europeans, but possibly the United States as well. We had an obligation to help protect Europe from Hitler. However, most of Europe this time around is staunchly against the war on Iraq, it's just us, the Lone Wolf of the mighty USA who go out a-fightin'. Is it because Europe is chicken? I don't think so. I think it is because most European countries have much more concern for the good of the world and its people. America wouldn't even *think* of something so horrible as universal healthcare, but European countries are much more concerned with the well-being of peoples health.

 

Is there a reason to fight this war with Iraq? No. Is there a reason to bomb Afganistan? Maybe, if it could be for sure proven that that's where Osama even was. We haven't found him yet, so it's hard to say. But in the mean time, we're just poking sticks at a hill of fire ants.

 

To dishonor someone would imply that they had honor to begin with, and that is the fundamental difference here. I do not think it is honorable to go about killing people. Nor is it necessary. Look at Sweden. EXTREMELY high standard of living, the poor are taken care of. They have health care, free education, they harbor refugees. Do they start wars? Nope. They are doing better than us, they have a much better human-rights record, and they don't think they're just the best dang country in the world or else we'll shoot you. If I could stand the cold and the dark half of the year would I move there? Visst.

 

One more thing. If Sweden came over here and dethroned George Bush, you can bet I'd be pissed. *That* would be a good time to start fighting for our rights. It's an insult to me and my fellow countrypeople to say 'oh, you can't work your problems out yourselves, so we're just gonna come on down and do it for you'. However, if it were the Swedes, it may sound more like "Ni kan inte tar hand om era problem, så vi ska göra det för er". Although Sweden is definately a country I approve of, I would not tolerate another country coming in and forcing a new administration on us, no matter how much I could not stand the old one. I cannot wait for GWB to get tossed out of the white house (and with any luck, it will be soon), but I will not stand for another country to come in and do it for me.

 

None of what I have just 'regurgitated' comes from people that I have met or talked with here at Berkeley. I do a lot of thinking in my free time, and I do all of it myself. I don't need Fox News to tell me what to think, and I don't need some whiney protester who gets in my way as I'm going to class to control my thoughts. If you'd overcome your stereotypes just a teensy weensy bit, you might understand that you have been taken advantage of. And you should be outraged.

 

by the way, if you'd like citations, I would be more than happy to provide them, provided you would actually bother to look, and with an open mind.

[delta1]

Again, Beka, I'm not going to subject the forum to a political debate. I will suggest that your portrayal of American fighting men and women as wanting to party and kill innocents, or as propogandized fools, was inapropriate here. Some of us choose to honor a fallen warior, others are free to use the occasion to politicise and sling mud. But one thing is undeniable: it is the sacrifices made by thousands of men like this who gave you the opportunity to vent your spleen openly here. You have a good life.

[shotochem]

Fear not Delta, we all were alot like Beca. It time as you get older you begin to look at things very differently.

 

We all have our own opinions. Lets not get into a political flamefest. This is an emotional issue, lets not all get angry at each other.

 

(This is not an imposter. It is really Shotochem )

 

Politics and Religion are what I try to stay away from. I tend to rile too many people up .