more nunchaku stuff...

[Matousek]

Hes just having fun...

[PatrickGresham]

To Shorinryu Sensei:

Since I see I'm a target for your criticism, I figure I should address you myself.

"Yep, they're fancy and flashy all right, and really poor technique. Personally, I wouldn't recommend them to anybody to learn from, but rather as an example of self-learned (probably) "what not to do" technique"

Yes, I am self taught with nunchaku. I only intended my page to be specifically for those who wish to learn flashy techniques, not tradition. If people seek out to learn flash, they will find my page, and from it they will see what to work on to achieve THEIR goals, not yours.

"I bow to that lad's right to do so, and his right to post it on the internet, but he is presenting something that in the long run will harm the arts more than they already are."

You are not the god of martial arts, nor am I. I am doing nothing to harm the arts, I am simply giving people examples of how to expand their experiences with their own ventures into nunchaku. I'm not the one setting boundaries which practicioners must remain in in order to avoid harming the arts.

I have never claimed to be a master, I have never claimed to have answers. The day I call others to my site with promises of mastering "traditional nunchaku" is the day you can judge me as harming anything.

Thank you all who supported me.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

To Shorinryu Sensei:

Since I see I'm a target for your criticism, I figure I should address you myself.

Yes, I am self taught with nunchaku. I only intended my page to be specifically for those who wish to learn flashy techniques, not tradition. If people seek out to learn flash, they will find my page, and from it they will see what to work on to achieve THEIR goals, not yours.

As longas people understand that what yo uare presenting on your page is flash, and not legitimate good technique, I have no problems with it. It's when people present themselves as legitimate, and they're not...THEN I have a problem with it.

You are not the god of martial arts, nor am I. I am doing nothing to harm the arts, I am simply giving people examples of how to expand their experiences with their own ventures into nunchaku. I'm not the one setting boundaries which practicioners must remain in in order to avoid harming the arts.

My problem with websites showing improper, flashy and ineffective techniques, whether it be nunchauku, or anything else, is that people that have no previous experience in legitimate good techniques don't know the difference. I have seen over the years, God knows how many instructors that self-teach themselves weapons and then pass that crap off to their students as good technique. My problem with this is that the students are blindly listening to their instructors and don't realize that they are learning garbage technique, not good technique. Then these studetns go out into the world and open a dojo and continue to pass on this garbage as good technique...because they don't know any better, and their sensei tells them it's good. THAT'S what I mean by harming the martial arts. It's a plague that is spreading all across the martial arts community and I see it every time I judge/ref a tournament.

[harleyt26]

I agree with Shorinryu Sensei.I would have to add that by placing it in the "weapons" section instead of the "sport karate" section it was misrepresented as something with real application instead of flashy useless trophy garbage.This made up self taught stuff is why I got out of competition and judging.It has no basics or kihone,no application of proper technique,no power delivered to the (supposed) weapon or from the (supposed) weapon to the target.As far as training with padded weapons,we tried that and quickly found that it produced a feeling of security in that it would not hurt if you do happen to get hit,that causes you to stop relying on proper blocking techniques,bad habbits are quickly formed.The same goes for wearing padded gear. Tom

[Hydroxinol]

As long as people understand that what yo uare presenting on your page is flash, and not legitimate good technique, I have no problems with it. It's when people present themselves as legitimate, and they're not...THEN I have a problem with it.

Who is to say what is 'legitimate good technique'? As a freestyle nunchaku enthusiast, I see Patrick's methods and techniques as 'legitimate' because they are practical for and correspond to MY CHOSEN nunchaku style.

Please do not criticise the actions and techniques of another just because they do not conform to the standards of your own chosen style. Bagging out Patrick because his way of using the nunchaku does not compare to your own is like complaining about someone who uses their computer for work rather then for playing games. As long as the style is compatible with the tool, all forms can be considered 'legitimate'

Don't be ignorant.

[PatrickGresham]

Shorinryu Sensei:

Are you suggesting that the nunchaku be limited strictly to traditional kobudo? If that's the case, should crescent kicks be limited to karate?

Should you run afoul of a capoeirista practicing on a beach and tell him "hey, that's bad crescent kick technique" you would be applying your own bias judgement to a form which you are not involved (as far as I can guess).

When you found my nunchaku page, you found a page dedicated to freestyle nunchaku, meaning NOT BOUND by the confines of "proper" or "tradition". FREE-STYLE. In the art of free style nunchaku, I'm showing proper technique. In your schema of nunchaku form, students should learn combat-applicable power techniques etc. I would never encourage people to carry their nunchaku with them in the unlikely event they are accosted by people not bearing guns.

I kept reading words such as "ineffective" and "improper", so I can only assume you're referring to combat application. Clearly hundreds of nunchaku artists grew tired of merely battling evildoers with their nunchaku and thus began performing freestyle. Our patterns and flips are "ineffective" for combat, but I assure you they are quite effective at building neuromuscular control and coordination- benefits of martial arts in general. Someone commented on freestylists as not generating power with the nunchaku- I assure you that is anything but the truth, for unless you have the coordination to control the power you generate, it can backfire.

"My problem with websites showing improper, flashy and ineffective techniques, whether it be nunchauku, or anything else, is that people that have no previous experience in legitimate good techniques don't know the difference."

Well sir, perhaps such prospective students are comparing what you have to offer versus what freestylists have to offer. That's the great thing about freedom of choice. Some will gravitate toward stoic, internalized, traditional art and strict foundation- God bless them. Others are seeking a more expressive, external, and CREATIVE. "Creative" is a powerful word here.

Necessity is a creative energy. Apparently some martial artists had the need to move outside the bounds of kobudo, thus creating the art of freestyle nunchaku. You don't have to like it. I promise you, you don't have to fear it detracting from your prospective fellow traditionalists. They would share your mentality. As for those who "don't know the difference"- well we share the same fear. I wouldn't want someone seeking freedom of expression and creative license to stumble into what is obviously the wrong application for our mutually beloved nunchaku.

"I have seen over the years, God knows how many instructors that self-teach themselves weapons and then pass that crap off to their students as good technique. My problem with this is that the students are blindly listening to their instructors and don't realize that they are learning garbage technique, not good technique. Then these studetns go out into the world and open a dojo and continue to pass on this garbage as good technique..."

Ok, perhaps I questioned your omniscience prematurely. Take heart that your own students will be learning the definitive proper technique, and perhaps they can save the traditional arts. Write the Bible of proper nunchaku form to counteract the wave of "crap" technique that for some unknown reason is becoming commonplace.

You are onto something with your reference to freestyle as a "plague" for two reasons. 1- Negative connotation aside- it is a vastly growing practive. 2- your tradition certainly resonates a sterile quality in which the "plague" of freestyle would never survive. So don't feel threatened. Your tradition is protected as long as it holds value for students.

Have fun with your proper technique, we freestylists will have fun with our proper technique- and never the twain shall meet. As far as tournements go- just hope there are more traditionalists on the panel.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Edit:I actually started this post before the previous one was posted. However, my position still stands. No ill will to anyone.

Well, might as well put in my two cents.

First of all, I think your analogy is a bit off, Hydroxinal. It should be "complaining about someone who uses their computer for playing games rather than work." This analogy would capture the essence of what he is saying.

Shorinryu Sensei isn't saying that you can't play around and have fun with the nunchaku. If you want to be all flashy and whatnot, that's fine. He's simply saying that when people pass off such flash as legitimate fighting technique, then that's where there is a problem. As he does not seem to be doing so, I do not see where the problem is (since he's not accusing Patrick of passing off those techniques as fighting techniques).

Now, back to your analogy. I chose to reword it because there is simply an objective line between "fighting techniques" and "flash techniques". Shorinryu Sensei is talking about actually combat applicability, not stylistic difference. When you talk about combat applicability, you have things that work well, things that work alright, and things that don't work at all. Flashy technique doesn't work at all unless you get lucky, and even then you run the risk of hurting yourself. Once again, he is talking about the legitimacy of combat applicability.

You mention that as long as the style is compatible with the tool, then it could be considered legitimate. I agree. Flash is compatible with flash in its own "legitimate" way. However, flash is not compatible with fighting because it simply isn't compatible with the tool, so to speak (akward analogy). All Shorinryu Sensei is saying (and those with experience in training nunchaku for combative purposes) is that flash isn't combatible with fighting and should not be passed off as such. He adds that there is danger in sites like Patrick's because people may take things off of his site and try to pass it off as legitimate technique. That doesn't mean that Patrick is encouraging them to do so, only that the possibility exists.

There is a degree of stylistic license in all things. However, when it comes to fighting with a weapon like the nunchaku, there are only so many ways of effective usage that are permissible. Certainly there are differences among practical fighting methods of using nunchaku. But there is a distinct and irrefutable line between flash and practicality. And Patrick isn't on the side of practicality for fighting purposes. That doesn't mean he's bad, its just simply stating a fact.

I've no problem with him doing that. But don't insult the intelligence of someone who has had far more experience in practical fighting experience than many of you have years on this good earth (myself included). He drew a very clear distinction and it doesn't speak well of you to deliberately misinterpret it (or if you honestly misinterpreted it, then I'll simply be clearing it up for you).

Have a nice day.

[PatrickGresham]

to Shorin Ryuu:

I totally see what you are saying and understand where you are coming from. It is your last point which is of most importance to me. You speak of:

"But don't insult the intelligence of someone who has had far more experience in practical fighting experience than many of you have years on this good earth (myself included)."

I agree with you. I hold respect for others as a treasured value. Just as we should respect him, I expect the same in return. I don't take kindly to having my fellow freestylists being described with terms such as "crap technique" and our form being likened to a plague. He should not be insulting the hard work that we all put in to realize our goals. Because we try unorthodox techniques, we pay our dues in bruises, blood, and the occasional groin injury. If he wants respect, he should pay it in kind.

I have worked hard to help others go down their path toward gaining talent with freestyle techniques. When he calls the 400+ members of my yahoo group practicioners of "crap technique" it tends to insult them.

I'm sure he has worked hard to help others grow in their traditional arts and were it not for his personal attack on me, I could see myself having great conversation with him. But when I spend hours coaching people in the dojang, on the phone, and online- only to have someone subject their practice to bias negative judgment, I have to respond in the name of all those who he targets, not just myself.

You, Shorin Ryuu, are obviously a person of respect, so perhaps you understand where I'm coming from. I don't want this to become a sophomoric "my dad can beat up your dad" discussion. I just want mutual respect for our chosen paths.

[psionics]

with deep respect sir Shorinryu Sensei, i would like to know where is your website of your good art?

-howard

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thank you Patrick for bringing up a wholified conclusions.. and not one ways..

[Shorinryu Sensei]

with deep respect sir Shorinryu Sensei, i would like to know where is your website of your good art?

-howard

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thank you Patrick for bringing up a wholified conclusions.. and not one ways..

Those that want to learn from me come to my dojo to learn from me, not to a website. I'm not trying to teach the world, just my small little corner of it.

I appreciate your skills PatrickGresham in what you are doing with the nunchauku, but I view the nunchaku as a weapon, not a twirling baton. That's where we differ. I can cripple or kill a person with them, not leave bruises and bumps because you twirled them wrong. As long as the people you teach realize that what you are doing is no different than twirling a baton and has little or no relevance to self-defense, then that's just fine with me.