What's best for me?

[Keezel]

Hi, I'm new the forum and to martial arts and I'm trying to decide what form would be best for me. I'm 19, 5'10", 130 Lbs. and in shape. I run a lot and I work out using my body weight in some exercises like bench press and I don't focus only on the usual chest/bicep/abs... I have fast reflexes and I'm more of a sprinter...that's how my muscles work. I was considering taking TKD just because there is a place near where I live. It's taught by a 7th degree black belt and they charge anywhere from 89-100 bucks a month plus testing fees....is it the right style/right price? Is it worth it? I'm especially wondering if it's really worth learning. A gun pretty much makes a black belt obsolete and I have 2 friends that demonstrated how in some instances, you're skrewed no matter how fast you are. One friend weighs 130 and has a 2nd degree black belt and my other friend weighs 300 lbs and when my first friend tries to kick at my...larger friend, he'll just grab him by the foot and hold him over the ground while he tries to figure out what to do with him, lol.

[delta1]

It sounds like you want a reality/fighting/self defense art more than sport or self developement. TKD can be taught that way effectively, but the vast majority of TKD is not. Ask the instructor, but if he says it is taught that way don't just take his word for it. Find out:

 

*Do they spar, and periodically with hard contact? The majority of their sparing should be continuous and done with some degree of contact. Don't let them sell you on point sparing for reality training.

 

*Do they work in close? Fights tend to get close, and as you've seen the high kicks that are the TKD trademark are exploitable.

 

*Do they at least defend takedowns? Some groundwork is a good thing for reality training.

 

*Do they study the psychology of an attack or confrontation? Practice talking someone down, teach avoidance methods?

 

Any school that does not do these things, and much more, cannot call itself a reality or self defence school.

 

Look around, see what all is there in your area, and compare. Go with your gut feeling.

 

I don't know about your region of the country, but over $80.00 for a months classes seems pretty high. For that, you'd better be getting outstanding training, unlimmited access to some excellent facilities, opportunitiis for extra training, and more. Ading test fees to those prices seems to me to be an insult. But I'm not there, so I can't say for sure. Again, comparison shop for both quality and price.

 

If you want to take martial arts for sport or spiritual reasons, there is nothing wrong with that. But then some of my responses will not apply. This advice is based on my perception of what you want, and could be wrong. But the suggestion to comparison shop is valid regardless. Also, don't be too impressed with rank. It means different things in different schools, and just look at all the new ranks on this forum today! In some associations or schools, every day is April 1st, and the students are the fools. Don't disrespect rank either, as he may have legitimately earned it. Just be a little skeptical until you know, and don't sign any contracts- especially at those prices.

[karatekid1975]

It depends on what you want out of MA. Delta had solid advice. Do a little "window shopping" before you sign anything. Check out different schools in your area.

 

Actually $80 for my area is cheap (I pay $67, though). The average is $100 a month around here. So it depends on the area you live in.

[Keezel]

It sounds like you want a reality/fighting/self defense art more than sport or self developement.

 

Thanks a lot! That's exactly what I was looking for. I want to be able to defend myself in a fight more than anything....I'd prefer to just get out of a fight but if it came down to it, I want to be able to defend myself. I like the physical training aspect of it too b/c I know I'll become more coordinated and more flexible....two things I don't know how to work on by myself. Thanks very much for giving me an idea of what to look for. And thx to karatekid for an idea of pricing. The place I mentioned does offer unlimited access to classes and the gym. It's a pretty big building and it's taught by "Sr. Master Todd Lee Droege" and he's with ATA TKD. So I've come up with one more question: you said the majority of TKD can be taught effectively as a fighting/self defense art but the majority is not. How then is it taught if it doesn't focus on self defense? I thought that was the main reason people learned it, and then they got into more philisophical/spiritual stuff later. I'd even go so far as to say it seems like a waste of money if you don't actually learn to fight and defend yourself.

[delta1]

...I'd prefer to just get out of a fight but if it came down to it, I want to be able to defend myself....you said the majority of TKD can be taught effectively as a fighting/self defense art but the majority is not. How then is it taught if it doesn't focus on self defense? I thought that was the main reason people learned it, and then they got into more philisophical/spiritual stuff later. I'd even go so far as to say it seems like a waste of money if you don't actually learn to fight and defend yourself.

 

Getting out of a fight is what the avoidance, psychology and de-escalation training is about. Most schools will tell you to just walk away. But not many teach you how to do it effectively on the street. Unfortunately, this is one where you may have to compromise and do the research and training yourself. If you find a school that actively trains and practices these skills, though, chances are it's the real deal.

 

As for TKD, a lot of schools teach it just for sport. Many teach point sparing and forms competition only. Some teach a mix of fighting and sport. Many will tell you that if you can compete, you can fight, and a lot of them actually believe this. It is wrong! The only area where sport fighting aproaches reality is fighting in some kind of full contact venue with very few rules. Same with weapons- learning traditional weapons can teach transferable skills and principles, but you need to actually practice with improvised weapons, and with the weapons you will more than likely face 'on the street'(knives and firearms). Most schools don't do this.

 

Another thing, and a real sore point with me since my base is in a technique based system, most self defense techniques out there are bogus. First off, many of them just don't work. And if they are taught as a rote response to a particular attack, they are worthless. You are learning to move under force of an attack, not pass a test by selecting the proper technique. No two attacks are exactly the same, so a one size fits all aproach to defending the attack does not work. You learn the techniques with a compliant attacker initially, but if you aren't drilling those techniques up to full force assaults, you are wasteing your time. Timeing, position, power generation, everything changes as the level of force increases. Then there are the 'what ifs', when things go wrong or don't work like you planned. If you stop the technique/assault to get it right, you are training to be a victim.

 

Next thing about TKD, there is a lot of wasted movement if you don't think about what you are doing. Example: they teach to chamber a backfist prior to striking. Do that in a real fight, you'll get hit before you can launch your strike. But I look at that as a good point to insert an elbow strike, since that is what the chamber looks like.

 

Many of TKD's one steps can be used in close, with some modifications and adjustments. But very few schools do this. I think those one steps were meant to be tweaked, modified, adjusted and used in an unlimmited number of applications. Some schools only require you to memorize them, but never apply them. Example: one one step is a front kick to a punch, followed by another front kick to his face. Does anyone really believe that they are being taught to block a punch to the face with a front ball kick? The challenger is usually at least five feet away when he throws the punch, how realistic is that? But, consider useing this when you have pulled your opponent off ballance and need to get him out of the picture. Front heel kick to his abdomen to bend him forward while moving him back. Then with your trailing foot front thrusting ball kick his chest. In close, modify those kicks to knee strikes. It works, but you have to work it that way. And you need to not only think of it that way, but be able to train it like that with partners. If your school/classmates aren't willing to train like that, it isn't reality, it's show.

 

I'm not dumping on traditional TKD for any reason, or any martial art taught for reasons other than reality. There are a lot of reasons to study martial arts besides fighting/self defense. But if you are going to teach sport, advertise it as sport. If you are going to teach self defense, then you should be teaching in a realistic way and teaching all phases and ranges and types of situations. Training should be as realistic as possible without someone getting seriously hurt. Periodically, that means fighting with contact, but not every class. It means a lot of drills, and a lot of practice of basics. But every once in a while, you have to use these skills.

 

It doesn't mean going nutts and getting hurt. I'm backing off from how I used to train (getting older really bites!). But if you don't go at it hard from time to time, you loose your edge. You are young enough to really get in there and learn an art well. Don't waste this time in something less than what you want. Take your time, look around and find something that you want. Don't let someone talk you into something else with promises or placations. If you can't get to a good reality school, take up something like boxing. Not the best reality art, but not to be underestimated either, and you'll learn to operate under pressure and to take hits and keep on going. Look at grappling arts as well, you may find what you want there. And in the end, you may end up back at the TKD school. But then you'll know, and you won't have to wonder if you made the right choice.

 

Good luck!

[DLopez]

Another thing, and a real sore point with me since my base is in a technique based system, most self defense techniques out there are bogus. First off, many of them just don't work. And if they are taught as a rote response to a particular attack, they are worthless. You are learning to move under force of an attack, not pass a test by selecting the proper technique. No two attacks are exactly the same, so a one size fits all aproach to defending the attack does not work. You learn the techniques with a compliant attacker initially, but if you aren't drilling those techniques up to full force assaults, you are wasteing your time. Timeing, position, power generation, everything changes as the level of force increases. Then there are the 'what ifs', when things go wrong or don't work like you planned. If you stop the technique/assault to get it right, you are training to be a victim.

 

There's a time for that, but the real-life scenarios should come way later after you've practiced the techniques over and over, correcting and refining the techniques so they become automatic, and not something you have to think about.

 

Another thing to think about, some techniques are so brutal and debilitating that practicing them full force would risk serious injury to the 'attacker'.

 

I've seen techniques applied by masters with such lightning quick precision, it's amazing. They make it look easy, but it's taken them years and years of practice to become that good.

 

I may not be good enough with my techniques yet to apply them in a real life fight yet, but that doesn't mean the techniques are worthless. It just means I still have a ways to go before I am ready to use them effectively.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day.

[delta1]

There's a time for that, but the real-life scenarios should come way later after you've practiced the techniques over and over, correcting and refining the techniques so they become automatic, and not something you have to think about.

 

Agreed, that's why you start with a compliant partner, then work up the force. It takes time. But if it takes too much time to learn, there's a good chance it is too complex to be of real value in a fight. Hopefully, the more experience you get the more you can accomplish in an actual situation. But you'll never keep all those fine motor skills when the adrenalin dumps.

Another thing to think about, some techniques are so brutal and debilitating that practicing them full force would risk serious injury to the 'attacker'.

 

Yes and no. You can go full force, but with control. You obviously don't want to kill or injure your partner. The main thing is that you learn to apply those moves under the force you'll have to deal with on the street.

I may not be good enough with my techniques yet to apply them in a real life fight yet, but that doesn't mean the techniques are worthless. It just means I still have a ways to go before I am ready to use them effectively.

 

I didn't mean to imply that all self defense techniques were worthless. But some are. Further, some will work for one guy but not for the next, due to physical attributes or abilities, or just temperament. The only way to find out is in the crucible of force. I see in your byline that you are a successful competitor, so you know your stuff. But take the moves you know and apply them under force. You'll find that you have to make some modifications to make them work. You are not built the same, nor do you move exactly the same as everyone else, so it stands to reason that optimum ballance and positioning, aquireing leverage or setting up for a power shot is not exactly the same. Further, every opponent you face is not the same either, and your adjustments to his attacks will have to be slightly different. The only way to learn to make these adjustments is to feel the attacks applied and do the technique.

 

Look at history for some answers here. Traditional Jujitsu prior to the late 1800's was taught entirely by kata. It was believed that the applications were just too deadly to apply in training. They had all the moves down patt, but never applied them. When Jigoro Kano came along, one of the things he did was to eliminate any moves that couldn't be practiced full force, and then he had his students train with full applied force what was left. His students dominated open competition and challenges, useing things that were in traditional juijitsu, only less. But they practiced those things under force, and so were able to use them better under force than even seasoned competitors who did not train that way.

 

Again, I'm not putting down competition. I think it is great, and respect the dedication that competitors have. We admire ball players and runners, why not martial arts athletes? But Keezel is asking about reality martial arts, and wanted to know the difference, so I told him. He's also looking for a school, so I gave some pointers on what to look for. Please don't take this as an insult or a put down. But you'll have to admit, there are a lot of schools out there in all styles that will misrepresent themselves to get paying students in the door. And, in my view, a sport school that represents itself as a self defense school deminishes both the reality arts and the sport arts. Same would be true in reverse, though it isn't as common.

 

Getting a little long here. This is what happens when I get too much down time.

[Spookey]

Read up on the ATA (please) both on this forum, Defend.net, and https://www.itf-information.com!

 

Might I ask what part of Ga. you are from?

 

Taekwon!

 

Spookey

 

(Old Skool TKD)

[Keezel]

I live in Lithia Springs (Douglas County), Ga. I go to school in East Point (Fulton County). Thanks for all the info everyone....more than I ever expected, which is awesome. I'm gonna go read up on ATA now .

[delta1]

Here is a related thread:

 

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12769

 

I just opened it on the Combative forum. I thought we could get more input there on the topic of reality training.