Firearm defence?

[delta1]

I'm pretty sure that "aiming to wound" is not a legally defensable shot... but I defer to a lawyer.

 

Depends on the circumstances. If he's trying to kill me, and I allow him to live, then yes. If I'm just angry at him, then no. In between,...?

 

Also, if it is that seriouse and I need to pull a firearm, he's probably dead. It generally isn't worth the risk to try to wound. But every time a firearm is drawn someone doesn't have to die. Let's be realistic here- do you break someones elbow every time you fight just because you learned how to do it in class?

From a squarely front on shot, aiming center sternum is a high percentage shot to end it quick. But if he is quartered away from you, aiming at the sternum may only dammage muscle and might hit a lung.

Seems good advice for a sniper, but not for someone in a fight. Again, I'll defer if someone can actually cite, but I don't believe that such precise aim is realistically achievable for most people most of the time (in a fight). Hence the "center of mass" argument. If we could accurately target so closely (which way is gravity moving their organs right this moment?) why not just got for the spine shot every time?

 

You are taking my statement to extremes that I did not state or imply. I gave targets that contain many organs and structures- the mediasteinum and the lower brain- I did not say to aim for the spine. But, since you mention it, if you have the time and presence of mind to aim for a small target in an area that has many other good targets around it, you have a better chance of success. The hunters addage of 'aim small, miss small' applies here also.

 

Center mass is for the marginally trained victim who doesn't feel the need to study and practice. Sadly, this includes many police and military personnel. Center mass works in the open and your opponent is squarely facing you. But when he turns, you'd better adjust your aim point if you want to bring him down. You don't have to consider "which way is gravity moving their organs right this moment," but you do need a good idea what's where and aim for it. Again, I'll use an analogy of fighting empty hands. Opponents move, and you pick targets and adjust strikes as he does. In fact, considering that you do Silat, you are having to both attack and defend on multiple planes and levels simultaneously. That is a lot more complex than adjusting your aim point automatically.

 

 

A heart hit is not instant death either.

 

No, but a heart shot is a shocker, and a lot quicker death than a lung if you were just shooting center mass and perforate an air sack instead of the heart or a major artery.

'between the eyes is not good. It may will set of a serries of random impulses that could get you unintentionally injured, especially if he is armed. A shot just under the nose, however, will immediately shut down everything.

Depends on the angle of incident doesn't it?

 

Of course it does. That's one of the major points I brought up in my post. I was in a hurry and did not develope the point here, but you are correct. Many people have the idea that if you shoot a person between the eyes with a level shot, it's instant death and he'll simply fall over. Death is highly probable, but he may well initiate a serries of randome strikes or other actions. If he has a blade and is close, you may be seriously injured. If he has a semi-auto firearm, he may well spray the area with bullets. Top of the nose up is where you think, nose down is where you live- that is where all your body functions are controlled. If all you have is a head shot, and the gun is already pointed in your direction, this might be a good thing to know. And, if you are standing over him so that you have a good angle of incidence where the bullet enters between the eyes and takes out the medula oblongata, this sounds suspicously like an execution.

 

Another thing about the center mass method of aiming, since you are not shooting for a specific target, you are depending a lot on the shock effect of the first rounds to strike the opponent. Often you find the same people touting this method are carrying something like a 9mm with a high capacity magazine. They are close relatives of the 'spray and pray' folks, and more is better, right? Problem is that whole magazines of this (less than adequate) round have been emptied into people who have subsequently carried out fatal assaults before succombing to their wounds. The incident that finally forced the FBI to drop the 9mm and go to the 10mm occured on a dock in your neck of the woods. It was a few years ago, so I don't remember how many hits the guy took from several agents, but it was phenominal.

 

Look, I'm not saying that someone who shoots center mass with a pellet gun is not a threat, or that an untrained shooter can't kill you, or that you should never kill someone. I am saying that if you choose to carry any weapon, you should train with it and use it responsibly. You'll have a much higher chance of success, much lower chance it will be taken and used on you and others, and a much happier and guilt free life. And there's a lot more to it than than 'point at the middle and shoot!'

 

Edit: Actually, after going back and rereading my post, I see I developed that statement a lot more than I thought:

From a ssquarely front on shot, aiming center sternum is a high percentage shot to end it quick. But if he is quartered away from you, aiming at the sternum may only dammage muscle and might hit a lung. Neither will end it quickly,..*You need to pick targets that will end it quick, and that have other organs or structure close by in case your aim is not perfect....But again, as the head turns, the aim point changes. Your real target is the medula oblongatta and the 'reptilian brain' that surrounds it- and that lies at the lower back sideof his head. Just popping the head won't do the job, you have to aim internally.

I clearly talked about targeting areas with a high number of vitals, not pinpoint shooting under combat conditions. I talked about ending the confrontation quickly, not about immediate death. And, I did talk about the angle of incidence of the head shot-"But again, as the head turns, the aim point changes."

Edited April 1, 2004 by delta1

[delta1]

Honey, I'm hom*BAM BAM BAM*

 

Been talkin to me missus, have yer?

At least I hope guns don't come out to stop muggers.

 

Actually, that would be one good use of a firearm. First off, a mugging is a violent crime that too often ends in injury or death. Your life is in danger. Second, if you are carrying and the mugger gets your weapon, you are in real danger. That is another thing to consider when you decide to carry a weapon. There is no longer any such thing as a minor fight or a simple robbery. The presence of the weapon makes any physical altercation extremely hazzardous, and once deployed the level of threat is deadly force. In a mugging, that's justified. In a simple pushing match, you could be in trouble with the law if you raise the threat too soon. Too late, and he may get your weapon and raise the threat himself, with you at a severe disadvantage. Like with your martial arts experience, you have to walk away from a lot more when you are armed.

Edited April 1, 2004 by delta1

[equaninimus]

The advantage aiming for the centre of mass has for the novice, and the trained, is that you will often in situations of fear jerk the trigger, making the barrell tilt upward. A shot aimed at the center that tilts up is likely to strike the noggin. A shot aimed at the head that tilts up is likely to down a pigeon.

[delta1]

The advantage aiming for the centre of mass has for the novice, and the trained, is that you will often in situations of fear jerk the trigger, making the barrell tilt upward. A shot aimed at the center that tilts up is likely to strike the noggin. A shot aimed at the head that tilts up is likely to down a pigeon.

 

Actually, a convulsive jerk usually causes the entire firearm to cant, causing the round to strike high and wide. You can completely miss an amazingly large target at ridiculously close range this way.

 

Furthermore, if you are in panic mode, you tend to focus on all the wrong things. If he has a weapon, often your eyes are drawn to the weapon instead of the opponent. And can you guess where you tend to point your own weapon now?

 

The cure for both mistakes- high stress scenario based training. Sounds a lot like any reality based martial art, doesn't it?

[JerryLove]

Also, if it is that seriouse and I need to pull a firearm, he's probably dead. It generally isn't worth the risk to try to wound. But every time a firearm is drawn someone doesn't have to die. Let's be realistic here- do you break someones elbow every time you fight just because you learned how to do it in class?

 

No, but the "level of force" rules are very different with a firearm than unarmed. Are you aware of police ever using a firearm for the purpose of subdual?

You are taking my statement to extremes that I did not state or imply.

My apologies... not my intent.

In fact, considering that you do Silat, you are having to both attack and defend on multiple planes and levels simultaneously. That is a lot more complex than adjusting your aim point automatically.

Yes, but I have touch references for that.

Death is highly probable, but he may well initiate a serries of randome strikes or other actions. If he has a blade and is close, you may be seriously injured.

I've said before... "the fight isn't over till the twitching stops". I think that you are touching on a very common misconception that many people have that "fatal" = "immediately fatal".

 

No matter what else, you need to be prepared to deal with the attacker attacking... even after you've killed him. (and I believe we are in the same boat here).

[delta1]

... the "level of force" rules are very different with a firearm than unarmed. Are you aware of police ever using a firearm for the purpose of subdual?

 

You are correct about tha level of force rules. As for police useing firearms to subdue, yes. It is one of the primary tools of their trade, and often used but not that often fired in actual contacts. If you mean useing it as a club or joint locking or pressure point device, no- though it could be used that way. But the officer had better have a really good reason, and some good witnesses and a video wouldn't hurt either (assuming it was justified).

"You are taking my statement to extremes..." My apologies... not my intent.

 

No problem. If you misunderstood it, someone else probably did too. Gave me a chance to clarify.

In fact, considering that you do Silat, you are having to both attack and defend on multiple planes and levels simultaneously. That is a lot more complex than adjusting your aim point automatically.

Yes, but I have touch references for that.

 

True enough. But you developed the proper understanding and responses to those references through training. I'm only suggesting that the same approach with firearms will develope the automatic responses and adjustments required to more effectively use a firearm.

I've said before... "the fight isn't over till the twitching stops". I think that you are touching on a very common misconception that many people have that "fatal" = "immediately fatal". No matter what else, you need to be prepared to deal with the attacker attacking... even after you've killed him. (and I believe we are in the same boat here).

 

That is certainly true. Two ways to get hurt in a fight, intentional and unintentional. Standing in front of someone as you uppercut his solar plexus and forgetting to check his head is one example of an unintentional injury, as you are about to eat an accidental head butt. I think getting cut or shot by someone in their death throes would be a good extreme example. Then there's allways the crazed or dedicated opponent who makes that last ditch effort to take you out before his lights go out.

[WomanInBlack]

I have a query. I live in the UK so don't have any experience with handguns, but am intrigued as to their aplication.

 

If you were forced to draw your firearm for street self-defence purposes and you felt the need to shoot someone, generally where would you shoot them? Would you shoot to kill? If you shot them in the chest, would you shoot again as a sort of mercy killing? How long would you stay around and what would you do to cover yourself legally?

 

Open for opinions and facts.

 

S

 

Nobody here can honestly give an opinion until you are an owner of a firearm and have been instructed on to properly "use" said firearm.

 

That doesn't mean how to point and shoot and load etc etc. but also your gunfighting instruction will take into account various scenarios.

 

Most people have a difficult time actually pointing their firearm at an individual. This validates Lt. Col. David Grossman’s theories concerning a predisposed trait inbred in humans which preserves life vs. taking life.

 

Your first move is to communicate with the assailant. Try to reason with him but do not demand that they"show their hands" which invites the them to make the first move putting you at a huge disadvantage.

[returning_wave]

to continue a point made earlier, I dont think most thinking Brits consider americans to be gun-runnign trigger happy cowboys, but my perception of the States and guns was somewhat tainted by a message board thread i saw discussing the issue where an American had said it was good that everyone carried guns because then 'any average joe can stop a crime if they need to,' apparently not realising the culture of fear he was describing. I will always remain against guns period although before i get accused about just being an america-basher I intend to move there asap after university.

 

Anyway on the original point, during what little weapon training ive done (two lessons at a rifle range) I was told what soemone already said - aim centre, then you have space to go wide. Of course, havign never shot someone im hardly an expert.

[JerryLove]

Your first move is to communicate with the assailant. Try to reason with him but do not demand that they"show their hands" which invites the them to make the first move putting you at a huge disadvantage.

I must disagree. I don't see that opening a line of communication at that point is useful. Conversely, if you had a firearm pointed at me and I desired to attack you anyway, *then* I would be looking to open up a discussion... to distract you from the task at hand.

 

No, from a civillian standpoint, I tend to think in the "stay back and don't move or I will shoot you" is about the most "discussion" I"m interested in having.

but my perception of the States and guns was somewhat tainted by a message board thread i saw discussing the issue where an American had said it was good that everyone carried guns because then 'any average joe can stop a crime if they need to,' apparently not realising the culture of fear he was describing.

 

There is a city in Georga which passed a law requiring all homeowners to posess a firearm. There is not a "culture of fear there" (they actually did it in protest to an Arizona city which outlawed firearms), but there was a *drastic* drop in crime after the law went into effect.

 

I go to a martial arts school where essentially everyone is armed, and about half carry fireamrs. There is no "culture of fear" there either.

I will always remain against guns period

But you've not given reasons as to why.

Anyway on the original point, during what little weapon training ive done (two lessons at a rifle range) I was told what soemone already said - aim centre, then you have space to go wide.

Under what circumstances? I'm gonna go with Delta1 here. Certainly this is not what hunters do (what I would imagine you would learn on a rifle range).

[Rich_2k3]

If u want to find out about gun or knife defence I would seriously consider reading up on some SAS self-defence tactics, their excellant. I've recently read SAS guide to self defence and theres a defence for more or less everything, from guns to wild animals.

 

I also found a good site yesterday about gun defences, check it out:

 

http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/gettough1.htm

 

Its basically a collection of the best locks, holds, defences etc. that you as a human being can possibly do, have a look.

 

p.s Dont ask why the attacker is always a german footsoldier from WWII???