Opening School

[Martial Boy]

Am an 6th kyu, I guess if you want to start to have a job at being an instrutor in one building you should be atleast 2nd dan and if you want to start a club you need to be atlease a 4th dan and if you want to good at your job you need a 6th dan.

[TangSooGuy]

yeah, there are some interesting dynamics here.

 

many people have said you shouldn't start a school until you are a 4th dan.

 

In my association you can't get a 4th Dan Master Rank unless you have started and maintained a school...

 

"school" being defined as any club/organinized dojang, through a YMCA or whetever else included, with at least 25 students having been registered with the Association.

 

It's all a matter of pereception, I guess. On one side, there is teh viewpoint that you shouldn't be teaching until you've elarned a great deal about the martial art you are studying, which is valid.

 

The other viewpoint is that you shouldn't achieve high ranking status until you've proved yourself as a teacher, which I think is equally valid.

[Missa]

Joining into a martial arts school, you really should think about the credibility of a teacher. My experience (take it as you want. I am not a member of the martial arts community yet. I have not joined due to various reasons, but am looking into one school at the moment). with the different schools (especiallt TKD, being in Jhoon Rhee country, or TX is that anyone can claim themselves to be a master. Don't look at certificates. Look at years of experience, years in a specific location, and above all, ask about their name around town. One good indcator is if this person is in good standing not only within, say for example, the TKD community, but also within other forms of martial arts. This can be extremely important. Continuing education, and knowledge and acceptance of other arts can make for a more fulfilling martial arts experience. 'sides, you don't want to end up at a belt factory.

[benkendrick]

The whole idea that one has to attain a certain "dan" level before they begin teaching, to me, is silly. If that were the case then none of us would have ever been able learn because prior to the early part of this century there were no "Dan" ranks in the martial arts, at least not as we know them today...

 

It's my understanding that in the old days there were teachers and there were student's. If your teacher thought you were ready he'd give you permission to teach. Often times some folks would just start teaching on their own. In either case if you, as a teacher, had something worth learning it would reflect in your students. (IMO this is still true today)

 

That being said, I've been involved in the arts for a little over 25 years. I've trained formally and informally in several systems over the years. To date, my highest formal ranking is 1st Dan. However I've been "teaching" since I was a senior Kyu grade (in the various schools I've belonged to) and have had several personal students train with me privately.

 

Does this mean I'm any less qualifed to teach, simply because I haven't reached some magic number of dan grade. I think not - because the students I've trained stayed with me because they saw value in what I was teaching. And when I felt that I had taught them as much as I could, I encouraged them to seek out more training elsewhere so that they could grow...

 

BTW - I've also heard it said that Miyagi Chojun (along with many okinawan sensei of the day) was disgusted when he heard that Funakoshi had adopted a version of Kano's ranking system. I've also been told he refused to give out "dan" grades as we know them. (Admittedly, I'm not a Goju guy - so I may be wrong here). The point is, does this invalidate the crdibility of everyone teaching Goju? Of course not...

[MichiganTKD]

The problem with the above argument is that in today's world, we have grown accustomed to dan ranking, regardless of how authentic the person claiming it might be. I realize 150 years ago, the Dan rank didn't exist. But this isn't 150 years ago. In 2004, one of the first questions people ask of any Instructor is "what rank is he?" And any Instructor who has been training for 25 years and only holds 2nd-3rd Dan has to be prepared to explain WHY he has been in martial arts that long and only holds 3rd Dan. People will assume he is not very good, because if he was any good, he would be higher ranking.

 

Even non-students are familiar enough with Dan ranking to realize that different Dan levels are achieved in X amount of time, and there is something suspicious about putting all that time in and only achieving 2nd or 3rd Dan.

 

Sad but true: Incompetent 7th Dans are assumed to be better than truly talented and knowledgable 3rd or 4th Dans because of the 7 after their name. Probably not what Dr. Kano envisioned, but the reality nonetheless.

 

In WTF Tae Kwon Do, you can assist teaching from 1st-3rd Dan. Only after 4th Dan can you teach your own class.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

And any Instructor who has been training for 25 years and only holds 2nd-3rd Dan has to be prepared to explain WHY he has been in martial arts that long and only holds 3rd Dan. People will assume he is not very good, because if he was any good, he would be higher ranking.

 

Well, since this appears to be directed at me, since I've been in this one art for nearly 30 years and "only" a 3rd Dan, let me explain to you why.

 

I live in North Western Montana. If you've never been here, it would be hard to visualize I suppose. We're rather isolated here, and jobs and money are tight. This is so in my case. the nearest senior black belt that I can train under is in Seattle, Minnesota or Texas. All of which are around 600-800 miles or so away approximately. I travelled to Minnesota once and was tested for my Nidan, and a few years later to seattle and tested for my Sandan. That last time was 1990. Due to finances and job constraints, I have been unable to travel to any of these locatiosn to test further.

 

Also, for 10 years after I received my shodan in 1978 I was basically on my own because my sensei moved out of state and our class to fend for themselves. As far as we knew, there was only one other sensei in the United States teaching this particular branch of Shorin Ryu Karate. So, during that 10 years, I and my class were alone on a island in the middle of nowhere. Alone and not knowing where to turn to for help, until I was contacted by a 4th Dan in Minnesota by the name of James Lee. Unfortunately, what we learned from Sensei Lee was, we found out a few years later, incorrect, so we had to make a lot of adjustments.

 

To make a long story short...yes, I have been in the arts a long time, and no, I don't hold a high rank. I have never been concerned with attaining higher rank, but strive to hone my skills and gather knowledge instead. To me, the art is my passion, not another stripe on my belt or a certificate on the wall. My students know this and are very loyal to me and never question why I haven't advanced since 1990. I am under, as of a year ago, a different sensei and organization than I used to be and hopefully will be gaining more knowledge this year, and possible another certificate to hang on my wall. But the former is what I want.

[equaninimus]

I think it may just be the Korean styles that have the pressure to be >4th dan. Many Japanese and Okinawan stylists tend to grade less frequently. In all the "flavours" of Karate I have studied, 10-12 years from 1st to 3d dan is not uncommon. It was ten years for me from 1st to 3d dan in Shotokan, and I took my 3d dan grading pretty much under duress.

[benkendrick]

The problem with the above argument is that in today's world, we have grown accustomed to dan ranking, regardless of how authentic the person claiming it might be. I realize 150 years ago, the Dan rank didn't exist. But this isn't 150 years ago. In 2004, one of the first questions people ask of any Instructor is "what rank is he?".

 

I don't necesarily disagree with you here. HOwever, I would counter by stating that IMO that problem is not that, "that was then this is now". The problem is that "we have grown accustomed to dan ranking, regardless of how authentic the person claiming it might be". To my way of thinking this is because we as a modern society tend to put far too much emphasis on the end goal of getting a black belt. So much so, that we often loose sight of the journey (or process) that one should go through in earning it. To me the process is more much more important.

 

Everybody has different reasons for training. Personally, my purpose for training is not to see how many stripes I can cover my black belt with. My purpose for training is to better myself everytime I walk into the dojo. My purpose in teaching is to help my students become the best martial artists they can be. This may sound corny but it's just me...

And any Instructor who has been training for 25 years and only holds 2nd-3rd Dan has to be prepared to explain WHY he has been in martial arts that long and only holds 3rd Dan. People will assume he is not very good, because if he was any good, he would be higher ranking.

 

I don't see why one should have "to be prepared to explain WHY he has been in martial arts that long and only holds 3rd Dan". I personally don't feel the need to validate my rank for anyone. The rank I hold is mine, awarded to me by the instructors I was training with at that time and it's legitimate. If they want to see what I know - what my training is all about - they can step on the mat with me... (I don't mean that in an arrogant or offensive way either)

Even non-students are familiar enough with Dan ranking to realize that different Dan levels are achieved in X amount of time, and there is something suspicious about putting all that time in and only achieving 2nd or 3rd Dan.

 

This is exactly the problem with modern martial arts training IMO. Organizations today treat their training like it's some kind of commodity that can be bought with little more commitment than signing a contract to join the local "Masters club". And the public buys it, so after a while this thinking becomes the norm. I find it even more suspicious when I see some 2nd or 3rd dan whose been training for 5 years (especially when they aren't even old enough to drive). Or better yet how bout the local "grand master" whose still in his early 30's?

Sad but true: Incompetent 7th Dans are assumed to be better than truly talented and knowledgable 3rd or 4th Dans because of the 7 after their name. Probably not what Dr. Kano envisioned, but the reality nonetheless.

 

And this is exactly the result of the mass marketing of modern martial arts. By this standard your local McDojo 4th Dan in Make-a-buck Ryu(whose probably between 16 and 20 years old and been training for 6 - 9 years) is considered more qualified to teach than someone whose quietly spent a quarter of a century dilligently working on their technique.

 

As for me, I'd be perfectly happy spending the rest of my martial arts days sweating away at my makiwara perfecting my technique, and looking for more bunkai in my kata without ever earning another "stripe". If someone wants to join me on the mat - all the better, maybe we can learn something from one another....

[ramymensa]

Guess I'd have to wait for 20 years to be able to have my school. We are allowed to open a school when shodans. It take almost 7 years to get to BB or even more ... so I guess we're kinda qualified.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

My thoughts exactly benkendrick. The journey and end result are far more important than promotions to me also. I'm sure, if I really cared about higher rank, I could have found a way to travel and get more rank, but it just simply doesn't matter to me.

 

One interesting note on that. I had two students in the past that joined a different organization and now both hold 6th Dans, although they started out under me...one attaining his Shodan, the other a mid-level belt. Are they any good now? I don't know, as one of these students I kicked out of my class because of a poor attitude, and the other left because he rarely showed up and I gave him the choice. Commit to it, or leave. He left.