ZR440 Posted March 30, 2004 Posted March 30, 2004 Xtra Tribal, not to answer for Jerry (he's not shy about telling you himself ), but I think I know what he's alluding to here. The FMA's tend to take whatever you give them and work in. They pick you apart a piece at a time, but very rapidly. There's nothing wrong with this, unless it is all you can do. And too many schools/systems get hung up in that long range mindset. FMA's should generally work at largo (long), medio (medium), and corto (close) ranges. Some break it even farther down, but those are basic. Some also do stand up grappling (interesting with sticks or blades) and Fillipino ground fighting. The problem is the same one TKD has. When you major in kicks, even though there is short range attacks in the system, it is easy to get hung up on working at a distance. Problem is, fights tend not to stay there. Same with a blade- too easy to try to let it intimidate your opponent and keep him at bay- or as Jerry put it, trying to fence with it. Also, picking him apart piecemeal doesn't allways work to get you in close, and if the opportunity to go directly in and finish him is there, you should take it. The longer any fight goes, the more chance you will get hurt, especially with weapons. This is not the case with all schools, and there are more FMA systems than anybody knows, so this is by no means an absolute statement. And a lot depends on the fighter as well. Same as with TKD, some do go directly in close and thrive there, in both styles. But the tendency is to stay out and try to hurt him first, then work in. Problem is, what if he hurts you first? My system (Maharlika Kuntaw) generally works it's way in close (hubud). If unarmed, a block is followed up with a grappling type lock, and if possible, redirecting the blade into the attacker. If armed with a blade, it can combine redirection of the attack with multiple slashes, or just go in and start carving them up. I don't have the skill to take on an experienced knife attacker, so I'll just run. It's happy hour somewhere in the world.
JerryLove Posted March 30, 2004 Posted March 30, 2004 My system (Maharlika Kuntaw) generally works it's way in close (hubud). I've done several of the habbud drills, it's still farther than I would choose to be against an armed attacker. If armed with a blade, it can combine redirection of the attack with multiple slashes, or just go in and start carving them up.Particularly the former sounds much like fencing.I don't have the skill to take on an experienced knife attacker, so I'll just run. If that is an option, I'll take it regardless... BTW, at what point in the fight to you get to determine if they are a master with a blade or "some guy with a knife"? https://www.clearsilat.com
ZR440 Posted March 30, 2004 Posted March 30, 2004 Yeah, running is the best and least painful. How to tell if the guy is good? I guess you have to consider everyone good if they carry a blade. And if you're in the fight it's already too late. It's happy hour somewhere in the world.
Bammx2 Posted April 9, 2004 Posted April 9, 2004 I have read some seriously good advice here on this subject and just thought I would add my 2 bits,if thats ok? I am an instructor and have studied and still study all the aspects of "non-traditional" weapons that I can...to the point that I am working on my own syllabus for kinfe fighting. The best instructors I personally have ever had on the subject where a) ex-special forces...Frank Cucci,ex-SEAL, also has a video series outo on H2H combat;Frank himself is a 10yr vet of the seals and instructor for them.B) 2 gentlemen I met at a seminar who had 10yrs between them in prison(1 was even in a thai prison) who now teach full time and last but not least....the British! Sounds funny to some,but think about it......they have no guns(supposedly) and love to bar fight! I spent 4 yrs teaching and training over there.....they can be very...interesting:) This can be a looong drawn out debate,but I hate typing a little too much. Just know this....The FIRST AND FOREMOST I PREACH(!) to my students how easily you can kill someone by ACCIDENT with a knife! So be be in the mindset at all times....your attacker will die from the slightest miscalculation. you MUST learn anatomy! I prsonally know of about 40 different places to jab and cut that are "non-vital" but nothing is %100.Accidents do happen...even for the so called "experts". PRACTICE,PRACTICE,PRACTICE!. The korean special forces and the french foreign legion are the only groups I know that practice with real bladed weapons....they have too. unless you plan on joining....I don't recommend it. Be very careful.....PLEASE! Once the knife is out...you may not have choice but to use it...... If you question yourself...get a baton and bash thier frickin shins into total submission! they won't die!
JerryLove Posted April 9, 2004 Posted April 9, 2004 Let me make sure I have this straight... you are advocating pulling out a knife and then "stabbing to wound"? I'd suggest you stop carrying one, your approach is irresponsable, dangerous, and ultimately foolish. If my knife is in play, I've probably already decided to use it (I don't threaten with it) and I am trying to remove you as a threat to me (I know of no better way to do that than to kill you). I'm interested in (and have trained for) the fastest and most debilitaing locations I can manage, as well as the most accessable. Though technically speaking, my fondness for a slash to the eyeball is not fatal. I've never interacted with Frank Cucci or a student of his, though my experience with "Ex SEAL martial arts" has been uniformly poor. It amazes me how much people seem to equate "SEAL" with "highly detailed and sophisticated CQB skills". Seals are "force multipliers". They have specialties (demolitions, language, sniper), plus a huge brace of "basic" skills (from infiltration of local groups to training methodologies), plus all the basic needs (infantry fighting), plus all the "Land and Sea" stuff. While I have no doubt that they are compitent fighters (hrm: large, strong, contidioned, aggressive soldiers), I'm entirely unaware that they get (or any reason why they should) terribly sophisticated unarmed nd melee-weapon fighting training. In fact, living in Tampa, McDill AFB houses USSOCOM (http://www.armyrotc.ufl.edu/resources/branches/specialforces.htm). With the school only about 5 miles from the AFB, we run into (and often train) SO people all the time. https://www.clearsilat.com
delta1 Posted April 9, 2004 Posted April 9, 2004 Bammx2, I'm having a little trouble following your train of thought here. But I'll respond and hope I get it right. First off, if you pulll a knife, you are using deadly force. So your reason for pulling it should warrant that level of force. Once deployed, as I stated before,your reason for being right now is to destroy the opponent. If he is armed, or if he gets control of your weapon, you are in seriouse trouble and your life is definately at risk. I don't advocate killing unless it is necessary, but in this case it may well be. And,frankly, better him than me. Once a knife comes out, your mindset has to be to take him out. You don't stop until your opponent has fled, been incapacitated to the point he can no longer be any sort of threat, or is dead. If the either of the first options occur, great. But my purpose is survival, and to insure that I'd fight to destroy him, not scare or subdue him. A knife is a close range weapon, and the deadliest one you are likely to encounter. You just don't have the time and can't afford to risk control or scare tactics once range is closed and he's engaged. As for the spec ops stuff out there, all I'll say is that there are a lot of people trying to cash in on this one, and not all are who or what they claim to be. 'Caveat emptor' is the by word when looking for this stuff, as well as any martial art related topic/instruction. Freedom isn't free!
Bammx2 Posted April 9, 2004 Posted April 9, 2004 WELL...... I have written somethign wrong here! I only base my advice on MY personal expierience only. 32 years in the martial arts,20yrs as a bouncer,all over the US and 1 or 2 foriegn places where the average drunk doesn't really care for americans. I am not going thru a resume' right now...I just know I have had alot of personal expierience in the field....and I am still learning. I just came from a country a month ago that the law states...if your are attacked with a weapon of ANY kind and you kill that person with a weapon of ANY kind...YOU go to jail for muder! I prefer to go with my personal knowledge of being able to wound rather than kill! I do not like the idea of prison....I'm just kooky that way. I was taught from the beginning to just kill with a knife...but I disagree with that if you are going to be serious about weapons of any sort. What I was actually trying to get across was;If you are going to learn about bladed weapons....learn everything you can about the human body,inside and out.Defense is not enuff...neither is attacking. you MUST learn all aspects that you can...not just bits and pieces. Why should I slice an artery when I can hit a ligament and get the same results and let the guy go home to his kids? I don't mind training fighters....I like to teach my students how teach as well. Therefore;I have studied,and keep studying,what I can about martial arts.I also have studied kenesiology,physiology,and anatomy as well as fitness,weight training,sports psychology and behavioral psychology.No I do not have a degree...but I can read! As for Frank Cucci......I leave that up to you guys to decide! as for "stabbing to wound"...if all a person knows how to do is kill....I wouldn't recommend them to teach to anyone! THAT is a dangerous person to learn from! What I have posted my not be acceptable to you...but it works for me and I have had no complaints from those I have taught over the years...most of what I teach is from being taught and actual application. learn what you can! the simplest even dumbest thing can save your life. Maybe I come across better in person? This is the first forum I have ever been involved with............hhhmmm...... I apologise to those I have offended. But not for what I know.
Sauzin Posted April 9, 2004 Posted April 9, 2004 I just came from a country a month ago that the law states...if your are attacked with a weapon of ANY kind and you kill that person with a weapon of ANY kind...YOU go to jail for muder! I prefer to go with my personal knowledge of being able to wound rather than kill! I do not like the idea of prison....I'm just kooky that way. I was taught from the beginning to just kill with a knife...but I disagree with that if you are going to be serious about weapons of any sort. I would rather go to jail then be killed. And if you are facing another knife fighter those may be your only two options. Still I'd rather kill him and find out afterwards then get killed trying to find another way. as for "stabbing to wound"...if all a person knows how to do is kill....I wouldn't recommend them to teach to anyone! THAT is a dangerous person to learn from! The term "stab" infers burying the knife into the flesh. Not only is this a great way to loose control of your weapon but I cannot think of an easier way to "accidentally kill" then that. If you are going to stab, it needs to be a finishing move. I have nothing against slashing ligaments, especially if there is opportunity, but limiting your targets instead of taking opportunistic ones can be a fatal mistake. Personally I don't want to kill. If given a clear choice to injure or kill, of course I will choose to injure. But knife fighting isn't like that and I resent people who think it is. If you aren't willing to kill why do you have a killing weapon? If a life isn't in danger, why are you endangering his? What can you learn from a killing weapon if you choose not to learn to kill? Why not a staff or a baton then? Even then killing is an option, but those weapons make it easier to choose something else. I'm not saying that you have to kill. I'm just saying that if you're not willing to what the heck are you doing with a knife? One more thing I’ve learned. The people who are best at not killing are the ones that have learned how to do both and are willing to do whatever it takes. It’s ironic but if you aren’t willing to kill then you aren’t in a position to stop it. The only two things that stand between an effective art and one that isn't are a tradition to draw knowledge from and the mind to practice it.
delta1 Posted April 10, 2004 Posted April 10, 2004 I just came from a country a month ago that the law states...if your are attacked with a weapon of ANY kind and you kill that person with a weapon of ANY kind...YOU go to jail for muder! Just goes to show that our laws aren't the worst around. But now I know where you are comeing from. What I was actually trying to get across was;If you are going to learn about bladed weapons....learn everything you can about the human body,inside and out.Defense is not enuff...neither is attacking. you MUST learn all aspects that you can...not just bits and pieces. Agreed! And you don't have to be a doctor. But a good general working knowlege is important.Why should I slice an artery when I can hit a ligament and get the same results and let the guy go home to his kids? I don't mind training fighters If that's an option, all well and good, and I'll take it. I've saidbefore that I don't hold with killing if there's another way. It's just that allowing someone who'se trying to kill me with a knife to live is not my primary concern. At this point, it's all about survival. If leaving is an option, take it. If wounding does the job, do it. But if we close and knives are involved, do whatever you have to. That may mean he dies, but again I'd rather him than me or someone I care about. My comments about the spec ops trainers were not directed at anyone in particular, nor the one about it applying to general martial arts also. I'm just saying to be careful what you plunk money down for. I apologise to those I have offended. But not for what I know. Didn't offend me in the least! I appreciate your input, but I was interested to know why you said some of the things you did. Things like focusing to train knife fighters to wound only. I can see training wounding strikes in the case you cited here, where it might keep you out of prison. And training wounding strikes is good to let the martial artist know in a fight that a) they are available, and b) that if you hit him there, you've only wounded him. The converse is also true, know the killing shots , if nothing else you can avoid them when you travel. But, no matter where I'm at, if I were in a knife fight and his throat were open, I hope I wouldn't hesitate to take the strike. And, that is the problem with training to wound only- your mindset is wrong. Avoiding strikes so that you don't kill him might get you killed. It's also a defensive mindset, which is (in my mind anyhow) not a good thing in this case. Again, just my opinion, and you should feel free to give yours as that is what these forums are about. It gives us all something else to consider other than our own narrow view. And, a lot to endlessly debate also! Freedom isn't free!
Bammx2 Posted April 12, 2004 Posted April 12, 2004 I do agree with sauzin...the best "wounders" are those who know how to hit the vital spots. I believe that is what I was missing. When I said I knew a load of non-vital points....I learned those AFTER I learned the vitals. Pretty much,in knife fighting,you have to take each one on an individual basis..but all round training helps you make better snap decisions. Not just training in your own club...but with as many different people as you can.It helps learn more about human nature in that setting,which in turn, helps you with those decicions. I came upon an idea to train with friends of mine who carried knives,but never had a day of training in thier lives. Now that gives an interesting perspective on knife-streetfighting! As with a gun....over 3/4 of the poulation carrying either one has no idea how to use them...they just think it adds an inch But I have seen a lot of trained fighters underestmate thier opponents skill due to lack of training and come out on the bad end of things. I just want people to truely understand the consequences of one way training. besides....learning is fun!
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