MMA

[Iron Arahat]

So a Kung Fu guy goes in, gets whooped, then decides he should do something more effective and you have no respect for that.

 

I give him lots of respect, for realising that he had made some errors in his thinking.

 

Delucia won his first and second fights in the UFC, then lost to Royce. That was his stint in the UFC. I have no respect in that he is an example of what makes money in martial arts, like his line of Combat Akido videos. Jack of all video trades.

 

I'm interested in what errors of thinking you are refering to.

[SevenStar]

So a Kung Fu guy goes in, gets whooped, then decides he should do something more effective and you have no respect for that.

 

I give him lots of respect, for realising that he had made some errors in his thinking.

 

Delucia won his first and second fights in the UFC, then lost to Royce. That was his stint in the UFC. I have no respect in that he is an example of what makes money in martial arts, like his line of Combat Akido videos. Jack of all video trades.

 

I'm interested in what errors of thinking you are refering to.

 

He was already training in bjj by the time he was in UFC. He went to Royce's school and accepted the gracie challenge. Royce beat him, and delucia began training bjj, then went to the ufc. His error in thinking was his approach. He had no ground training prior to the challenge. Upon losing, he realized it's importance.

[SevenStar]

and for the record, that was his stint in UFC, but not MMA. he has fought plenty since then, and has a record of 33-19. But from what I understand, he doesn't train 5 animals anymore.

[SevenStar]

 

I don't give credit to those who wear a kung-fu flag like Jason DeLucia, and turn around and claim to be "Hybrid Wrestling instructor." A ship jumper either way.

 

He ran across something that was more effective for him that what he was previously doing... that makes him a ship jumper? I'd rather jump ship and find something I can use then stick around in something that doesn't work for me...

 

My original statement was, "I am positive that a kung fu stylist trained for such an event they would do well, using the tools that they have." To be quite honest most people don't know the true depth of a of some Chinese martial arts...

 

1. that's part of the problem. How long do you have to train before you learn it? If I start training in longfist today and two months from now I end up in a fight that goes to the ground, I will not have learned any ground fighting by then. By cross training, I will have something that may save my butt when I'm on the ground, since I have to wait so long to learn it in CMA.

 

2. Name one system besides dogfist that has extensive groundwork. And out of the ones you name, how many are as extensive as a grappling style? What depth do you have to get to to learn it? And why not cross train in the mean time?

 

 

Not sure what you mean here, but yes Chinese schools compete in San Shou.

 

What I was addressing was CMA people competing. DM questioned How many CMA were involved in MMA. I bring up san shou saying that CMA have the opportunity to fight in their own venue, and even still, the number who do it is few, compared to other venues, like mma, judo, etc.

 

To reiterate, the truth of the matter is UFC also has confines and rules that effect the outcomes. Some promotions ban kicks to downed opponents, elbow strikes from certain angles, strikes to the back of the head, eyegouging, fish hooks, finger breaking, and small joint manipulation. Also they have rounds and refees, and so on. Plain and simple a sport. Yes to a point some of these skills may transfer over, but so does boxing skills for a boxer. The truth is though there are rules and confines, and safety with a referee.

 

so... if you can't modify what you do for that, then I would question what you train...and, I've said this before, but in the early ufcs, eye gouges were acceptable.

[Drunken Monkey]

hmm, i've only seen one or two san shou matches and they strike me as being kickboxing with a different bag of rules.

 

from what i've seen here in the uk, mma fights are better cos you have more freedom than in san shou.

 

* * *

 

like you say, there are rules and certain types of strikes that are not allowed in a sport fight.

 

unfortunately, some styles rely on these to get their 'win'

 

(and no, i am not talking about eyes gouges and throat strikes)

 

i don't like that 'lethal moves' argument because i also believe that you should be able to apply the principles, which should be more important than actual moves, in ANY situation to gain you the advantage.

 

BUT

 

if you remove some of the basic effective strikes (elbow to back of head/neck/spine, knee kicks etc etc) you are moving the fight that little bit away from street type defence that a lot of traditional arts concerntrate on,

 

which is one of the reasons i don't like to use these events as a judege against what works and what doesn't.

 

i see it like this.

 

in a mma/ufc event, the traditional guy has more things taken away from him than the ground fighting/grappling guy.

 

for the traditional guy to cover what has been taken away, he has to learn new skills that he would otherwise not need.

 

some of these things will fit with his base style.

 

some will not.

 

add to this that if he never intended to participate in a mma fight, he would

 

a) have spent most of his time learning lots of things that he will not use in the ring

 

b) not gain as much fight experience due to time learning

 

c) be entering an unfamiliar environment with almost unfamiliar (compared to his base style) moves.

 

the mma guy.

 

all of his training life has been geared towards that particular type of fight anyway, whether or not he participates in another matter.

 

he hasn't trained in things that he will not need and so his training has been quicker and he has more experience.

 

the ground fighting/grappling guy.

 

the nature of his style means that he has a built in advantage; he has an extra range of fighting that most traditional styles cannot handle.

 

even though he also loses the same moves that everyone else loses, his proficiency on the ground makes up for it.

 

basically, the traditional guy has more work to do if he wants to fight in a mma/ufc fight.

 

again, the point here is training.....

 

like i said chinese styles especially lack in ground work.

 

there is probably only one or two (right now i'm too lazy to look...) that have anything even vaguely similar.

 

this is down to the old chinese sytems being highly specialised.

 

some scholls were famous for the hand work.

 

some were famous for their kicking.

 

some were famous for their locks.

 

some were famous for their controls.

 

you would be hard pressed to find a school that is extensive in all aspects.

 

again i ask, just because i can't win a mma event, does that automatically mean my style is not good?

[White Warlock]

I would greatly disagree. Should I go down the list of MMA fighters who have brown or black belts in bjj? Should I list the ones that have wresteld for years? what about the ones that were pro kickboxers before crossing over?

 

Many MMA guys have a solid base in SOMETHING. They will branch out from there. you are confusing MMA guys with style hoppers and forms collectors.

I wish to clarify. When i stated MMA, i wasn't referring to exceptional champions that participate in MMA competitions. I was referring to Mixed Martial Arts practitioners in general. The stated norm, not the exception.

[Iron Arahat]

He was already training in bjj by the time he was in UFC. He went to Royce's school and accepted the gracie challenge. Royce beat him, and delucia began training bjj, then went to the ufc. His error in thinking was his approach. He had no ground training prior to the challenge. Upon losing, he realized it's importance.

 

See that is interesting, so in extent he was a MMA at the time of UFC. Trained by Royce in BJJ. UFC labeled him a "kung fu" expert.

 

Again let a fighter use anything at his disposal, results would be very different.

[SevenStar]

He was already training in bjj by the time he was in UFC. He went to Royce's school and accepted the gracie challenge. Royce beat him, and delucia began training bjj, then went to the ufc. His error in thinking was his approach. He had no ground training prior to the challenge. Upon losing, he realized it's importance.

 

See that is interesting, so in extent he was a MMA at the time of UFC. Trained by Royce in BJJ. UFC labeled him a "kung fu" expert.

 

Again let a fighter use anything at his disposal, results would be very different.

 

because he touted himself as a 5 animals stylist. That's what he trained when he fought Royce at his school. My guess is he'd been doing that style longer than he'd been grappling, so he touted himself as a CMA.

[AndrewGreen]

Fights are won on positioning. The guy in the better position has the advantage. Be it seperated, clinch or on the ground. Whoever has the better position can throw there techniques while the other can't.

 

Now it doesn't matter if it is dirty tactics, or clean ones, that rule applies.

 

MMA covers that in all ranges. Many traditional arts don't really cover it at all.

 

That is why grapplers did so well early on. They trained in all of those ranges, and how to transition from one to another. Striking arts don't do that.

 

A skilled wrestler can keep you standing, clinch or take you do and keep you there. A Striker does not have those skills.

 

All the dirty tricks in the world won't help you if you can't secure a postion to throw them from. Yes you can eye gouge, but the guy mounted on you can too, and his might actually land.

 

All this "deadly" technique nonsense is just that, nonsense. MMA fighters understand this. Arm bars alone are garbage too, as are chokes. What makes them work is the positioning and set ups that allow them to be delivered.

[Drunken Monkey]

finally, someone mentions something that is outside the confines of style.....

 

position is what counts.

 

specifically, where you can use your moves and where your opponent cannot.

 

as we seem to agree on, the success of the grapplers was because once on the ground their opponent was just not prepared for it.

 

like i said, forget the eye gouges.

 

it is accepted, by the rational at least, that what ever you can do, so can your opponent.

 

conversely, what you are not allowed to do, you opponent is not allowed either.

 

i don't like the style vs style argument because i believe that at the end of the day, the style is rather minor compared to the other factors that determine who wins.

 

put it this way.

 

put two absolute equal fighters in a ring.

 

same style, same weight, same training, same school, same school, same everything.

 

who wins?

 

the better fighter.

 

it will always be the better fighter.

 

well, unless the lucky fighter also takes part....