MMA

[White Warlock]

They are still limited by the tools and knowledge supplied through training.

I would like to add one more thing to this.

 

MMA suffers from something far more insidious. Superficiality. The majority of systems do not introduce more advanced features until well into the latter part of training. Many (not all) MMA practitioners never experience this, as they capture the basics but do not maintain studies in any one particular system long enough to gain deep insight.

[SevenStar]

I would greatly disagree. Should I go down the list of MMA fighters who have brown or black belts in bjj? Should I list the ones that have wresteld for years? what about the ones that were pro kickboxers before crossing over?

 

Many MMA guys have a solid base in SOMETHING. They will branch out from there. you are confusing MMA guys with style hoppers and forms collectors.

[SevenStar]

Myth and Mystique are what keeps many schools open.

 

Not much different by the than some stuff that keeps schools open, that claim we don't train a "style", or use sporting events to claim superiority.

 

you made a point worth addressing here. let's look at a kung fu school - not one in particular, just a vague example that many have seen/heard about before:

 

"We are in the direct lineage of grandmaster wun dum gai. He is undefeated in challenge matches and has the ability to break boulders with his chi."

 

Now, a sport school:

 

"Our coach is Max Jock. He has trained several pride champions and a few k-1 fighters."

 

Now, the differences:

 

with the kung fu school, how many other students are undefeated in challenge matches? How many can break boulders with their chi? Do any of them compete in anything other than point competitions? There is way too little information, and nobody notable other than some past master. With the sporting school, we have proof that the coach is doing something right. He's currently training champions.

 

THAT'S the very reason you see many MMA guys always referring to UFC, pride, etc. and alluding to ring competition. Obviously, those skills transfer into the street. Here, you have a guy who consistently trains guys to beat other mell trained MA. There's something good there. If the guy wsn't training people at such caliber, I'd move on. With many TMA schools, there is no such verification - most everything is just accounts of master wun dum gai that are transmitted via word of mouth.

[SevenStar]

how many 'kung fu' guys can you name that entered an mma event?

 

then compare them to the number of mma guys?

 

anyway...

 

let's see.

 

pure boxers get pounded in K1, therefore boxing is crap.....

 

my point is name the skills needed to do well and i'm sure i can point to its existence in a kung fu style.

 

the guy wasn't ready, not that the style isn't able.

 

ground grappling. About the only chinese style you will see with in depth ground fighting is dog boxing, and that is more of ground striking than grappling, from what I understand. certainly not as comprehensive as bjj, catch, greco, etc.

[SevenStar]

Before people in the old days determined the effectiveness of a MA on whether or not it kept you alive. Now it's determined on whether or not you win some competition. I'm being taught a MA that was used in death matches and in battle by Takamatsu the Grandmaster before this Grandmaster Hatsumi so it wasn't that long ago. I think someone who survived battle and won death matches has a little more experience of what works in real life than some martial artist who makes his living as a prize fighter.

 

^ That's exactly the type of thing I just posted about. a story about takamatsu and hatsumi. I repsect them both, but seriously, who cares about their death matches? Who since then has had a challenge match to the death and won? Do you have any proof of these death matches? What was the skill level of the opponent? etc, etc.

[SevenStar]

Plus not every Kung Fu practition entered UFC and don't have the desire to. That doesn't mean that there aren't practitioner of Kung Fu that would do well in NHB.

 

Due to the training methods, most would not. Now, if they trained properly for it and trained some groundwork, maybe.

 

Due to their training methods, most kung-fu stylists are not good golfers.

 

I am positive that a kung fu stylist trained for such an event they would do well, using the tools that they have.

 

It hasn't happened so far. All that's happened so far is a kung fu guy will enter, and once he loses, everyone complains about how bad his CMA was, instead of supporting him for at least having the balls to step up.

[SevenStar]

how many 'kung fu' guys can you name that entered an mma event compared to the number of mma guys?

 

good point. Now, let's think back to the beginning of the ufc.... How many mma guys were there? NONE!!!! there were savate guys, jkd guys, ninjas, grapplers, kickboxers, karate stylists, judoka, sumotori, kenpo guys, etc. What happened next? grapplers owned them all. Evolution begins to take place. people wake up and see that there really is something to ground grappling. The strikers started training in basic grappling. That's when the first MMA popped up. pure stylists got killed. Consequently, there are no pure stylists in those competitions anymore. That brings me to what I said above in response to iron arhat - unless trained properly (which means grappling is part of their regimen, in addition to other required training) they would get mauled.

 

Why haven't there been more kung fu guys in MMA? Are they trying to save face? Will them losing discredit the skill they received from the style's supposedly undefeated grandmaster? Or, maybe they just don't want to - who knows. But the opportunity is definitely there. Heck, they can even enter their own sport of san shou.

[Iron Arahat]

It hasn't happened so far. All that's happened so far is a kung fu guy will enter, and once he loses, everyone complains about how bad his CMA was, instead of supporting him for at least having the balls to step up.

 

I don't give credit to those who wear a kung-fu flag like Jason DeLucia, and turn around and claim to be "Hybrid Wrestling instructor." A ship jumper either way.

in response to iron arhat - unless trained properly (which means grappling is part of their regimen, in addition to other required training) they would get mauled

 

My original statement was, "I am positive that a kung fu stylist trained for such an event they would do well, using the tools that they have." To be quite honest most people don't know the true depth of a of some Chinese martial arts...

they can even enter their own sport of san shou

 

Not sure what you mean here, but yes Chinese schools compete in San Shou.

 

To reiterate, the truth of the matter is UFC also has confines and rules that effect the outcomes. Some promotions ban kicks to downed opponents, elbow strikes from certain angles, strikes to the back of the head, eyegouging, fish hooks, finger breaking, and small joint manipulation. Also they have rounds and refees, and so on. Plain and simple a sport. Yes to a point some of these skills may transfer over, but so does boxing skills for a boxer. The truth is though there are rules and confines, and safety with a referee.

 

Truth is rules are confines, and these confines can change a fight if it were real. This becomes especially so in close-quarters, ie. grappling. Eye gouges, fish hooks, small joint manipulation, finger breaking, can all change the outlook of a fight. Next time you wrestle, look at how many of these things you could do, but don't (why cause we can't really hurt everyone we train with, as that would be bad in so many ways). Truth is it is easer sometime t do those things than get a choke or armlock or so on, but maybe because people are conditioned to the confines of rules they think that this is just 'ungentlemanly' or 'unsportmanlike' or just unfair.

[AndrewGreen]

So a Kung Fu guy goes in, gets whooped, then decides he should do something more effective and you have no respect for that.

 

I give him lots of respect, for realising that he had made some errors in his thinking.

[Drunken Monkey]

y'know the thing that really bothers me is how people always end up sounding like what they are saying is 'chinese kung fu doesn't work'.....

 

anyway.

 

i agree.

 

ground fighting is probably the weakest aspect of the chinese arts.

 

but then that is mainly because the majority of chinese arts were created for a purpose/situation where ground fighting was not favourable.

 

there is always the argument that the chinese arts by their nature (of inception) were simply not suited to be used in a competition in a ring environment (yes, that old cherry again...).

 

but it IS true.

 

it may be because of how some styles work.

 

it may be because of how some styles train now (or not train as the case may be)

 

but i think the biggest reason is that the chinese styles were not designed to handle ground fighting which, from what i hear, is what you see the most in today's mma events.

 

i go back to my wing chun.

 

it was designed to fight guys who knew the older more classical shaolin styles (which may or may not include stand-up grappling and SOME ground-fighting).

 

it was never intended to go to the ground against a grappler.

 

that is the grappling styles' ADVANTAGE; it can work in a situation where wing chun cannot.

 

stick a pure wng chun in a ring against a grappler and chances are, he will lose.

 

on a one on one situation on neutral ground, the grappler will always have advantage of an extra range of fighting (on the ground).

 

my question is, does that mean that wing chun is a weak/crap/useless/ineffective style?

 

after all, ANY pure stand up style against a grappler will have a disadvantage not being able to apply himself on the ground so why specifically pick on chinese arts.

 

this ground fighting vs chinese styles is almost as round-about as the punch vs kick debate.

 

i say they are both different enough and complete enough by themselves to be incomparable to each other.

 

you don't need stand up skills to defend yourself.

 

you don't need grappling skills to defend yourself.

 

if your grappling is good enough, you can get the other guy on the floor and submit him easily.

 

if your stand up is good enough, you can knock the other guy out without him geting you onto the floor.

 

(again, i say it all boils down to your own skill, not the style)

 

however, you need to be competent in what you do

 

and obviously, the more you know, the better.

 

in short,

 

you need to competent in all aspects to be successfull in a competition event such as the ufc because

 

i) the possible number of different styles you will face

 

ii) the number of mma guys (who exist because of the different styles that exist).

 

but then being able to defend yourself and being able to win a mma event are two totally different things.

 

my first wing chun sifu (who is also trained in some kind of jiujitsu) works doors in london.

 

he isn't big, he isn't that strong but he has more than enough scars and stories to prove his abilities.

 

doesn't mean he can win a mma event.

 

and like i have said before, i can train ten years in a mma and it still doesn't mean that i can win a mma event nor does it mean that i will easily defend myself.

 

however, it should arm me with more ways of doing so but then so does training in any martial art.