Judo and JJJ-which is easier to learn?

[kaya]

i know that there are simularities between the 2(throws,locks).

 

jjj also has kicks,punches as well.

 

would i be correct in assuming that judo can be learnt in a quicker timescale than jjj?

 

i am talking about the time it takes to learn practical self defence techniques(and be able to use them),not the total time to master.

 

are the techniques easier to learn in judo?

 

i suppose what i mean is that if twins both took up martial arts on the same day,one in judo and one in jjj,and they both put in equal amounts of training,who would be better to protect themselves in a years time?(hope this makes sense)

 

also,removing the striking/weapons from jjj,is it the same as judo?

 

how do they differ?

 

which has more complex techniques?

 

thanks in advance

[Davison]

it depends on the twins,maybe one will work harder at it then the other,or maybe one is in better shape or more motivated than the other.judo was derived from daitoryu akikjujutsu with now is pretty much tjj.Jigoro Kano is judos founder and was vary experienced in a varitity of ma.he took the throws from aikijutsu and basically created his own system.why do you seem so concerned with time?no matter what art you study,you will never be able to gain maxium results with minimal time spent training.keep in mind that the greatest martial artists have made it a life long journey.

[superfighter]

Some would say that judo is easier to adapt to self defence becasue of its full contact sparring, something that JJJ isnt known for

[SevenStar]

]judo was derived from daitoryu akikjujutsu with now is pretty much tjj.

 

no it wasn't. judo was created from three forms of jujutsu, two of which were tenshin shinyo ryu and kito ryu.

 

Jigoro Kano is judos founder and was vary experienced in a varitity of ma.he took the throws from aikijutsu and basically created his own system.why do you seem so concerned with time?

 

he probably wants to become effective as fast as possible. Judo would likely make him effective faster than tjj. Sure it still takes time, but judo will produce the results he wants in a shorter time.

[Davison]

sevenstar,where do you think the three forms of jujutsu were derived from?after the fuedal japan ara and the samurai where put out of bis the only way for them to make a living was to teach their familys systems of ma.such names as tenshin shinyoryu and kitoryu are family names of their systems,maybe some are older than others but it is all jujutsu in general.if not,i would like to hear where and what system jujutsu was based on.the jujutsu,s throws and reaps had to come from some where just as judo,s throws and reaps came from jujutsu.some say that it all came from sumo.i dont claim to be a jappanesse history major or anything,so i might be wrong or might be right but kano sensi surely didnt create judo as fast as he could just to be effective.his system is to intricate to be put together in a fast manor,there iwas no reason for him to have to hurry to create it.it wasnt like he was prepareing for battle or anything.

[SevenStar]

kano sensi surely didnt create judo as fast as he could just to be effective.his system is to intricate to be put together in a fast manor,there iwas no reason for him to have to hurry to create it.it wasnt like he was prepareing for battle or anything.

 

That's not what I said. What I said is you can learn to become proficient with it faster, which is true. The amount of time it takes to become proficient in it means squat in regards to how long it took kano to develop the art.

 

I'll address the rest the post after lunch, when I get back from the gym.

[White Warlock]

sevenstar,where do you think the three forms of jujutsu were derived from?after the fuedal japan ara and the samurai where put out of bis the only way for them to make a living was to teach their familys systems of ma.

 

Felt like jumping in.

 

An entire caste of people, the samurai, raised with the mindset and philosophies of war, for a thousand years, in a hundred regions. Yes, there are many similarities between jujutsu systems, but the basis to these arts stem from Chinese systems, which vary substantially and yet, also have similarities.

 

Anyway, the thing to understand is that after the Tokugawa family took 'ultimate' control of Japan, they devised means to ensure that warriors would never again rise up. Reader's digest version (note that my memory on this is a bit fuzzy)-

 

Samurai were given two choices: Receive a portion of land but renounce their samurai status, or renounce their lands and keep their samurai status. To make the latter more appealing, the Tokugawa 'reinforced' a caste system that had been existing for quite some time, but was never formally established. Aristocrat (?), samurai, artisan, farmer, and merchant. The caste system was set into stone by stating that one is born a caste, and one dies a caste. I.e., a farmer cannot become a samurai, nor a samurai become a merchant. By doing this, the Tokugawa family was able to ensure that revolts could not obtain support. In many ways, Japan had become a socialist government.

 

So, what ensued was 300 years of peace, in which an entire caste of people had 'nothing' to do. No wars to fight and being on a government pension, samurais soon found themselves 'spiritualizing' their warrior ways. And, because of the institution of the caste system that stated one must be 'born' into a caste, samurai families and the tradition of carrying family 'arts' through the generations was established.

 

All this said and done, there were thousands of samurai families, each developing their arts from different regions. Each ended up incorporating their own philosophical 'twists' to their interpretations of the warrior arts and what ensued was a multitude of private family systems... some quite different than others. Each developed over a period of 300 years and as many as 15 generations.

 

Now, near the end of the 19th century, the Tokugawa family lost their control and the caste system was abolished. Not only that, the concept of samurais was abolished. Clearly a destructive blow to tradition, but it helped to bring Japan back to the modern age. In short order (around 50 years), Japan became a modern force to be reckoned with (Pearl Harbor). Without going into the details of WWII and what sparked the conflict between Japan and the U.S., i'll head back to what really matters in these discussions. What happened during those 50 years after the samurai were abolished?

 

Well, samurai were no longer receiving pensions... and thus had to fend for themselves. Many found that teaching their 'arts' became a means to that end, and thousands of different styles emerged (they always existed within the respective families, but now were accessible to anyone with money).

 

Jigoro Kano was a second generation recipient of this. Incorporating three different family empty hand combat systems, and removing the 'deadly' aspects to these, he developed a relatively simple offshoot that we all know as judo, but which was originally called Kano jujutsu.

 

Okay, gotta run...

[SevenStar]

Actually, there is no verifiable proof that jujutsu stemmed from china. Karate yes, jujutsu, no.

[SevenStar]

sevenstar,where do you think the three forms of jujutsu were derived from?[/b]

 

two things you are missing - 1.) timeline and 2.) styles.

 

There are over 700 documented styles of jujutsu. You can't really credit judo as stemming from daito ryu when there is over a 600 year difference between the two. Styles change from family to family, and over time. Kito Ryu was created in the 1600s - it was actually one of the more famous systems, as it was one of the first to integrate kata. There's a 400 year difference between kito and daito....

 

each style has it's preferences - kito's was throwing. tenshin utilized striking and groundwork. there's too much potential for error with such a broad generalization with the one you made. Judo did not come from daito...

[kaya]

]judo was derived from daitoryu akikjujutsu with now is pretty much tjj.

 

no it wasn't. judo was created from three forms of jujutsu, two of which were tenshin shinyo ryu and kito ryu.

 

Jigoro Kano is judos founder and was vary experienced in a varitity of ma.he took the throws from aikijutsu and basically created his own system.why do you seem so concerned with time?

 

he probably wants to become effective as fast as possible. Judo would likely make him effective faster than tjj. Sure it still takes time, but judo will produce the results he wants in a shorter time.

 

your right SevenStar,just looking for the quicker developement to aid self defence.

 

i know a number of people who have taken martial arts/self defence classes after they have been attacked(its a bit late then)

 

my theory is "prevention is better than cure".

 

i would rather learn something before being attacked,to reduce the chance of becoming a victim.

 

also,i know some mates who have taken up martial arts,and due to the lack of developement(they felt the techniques learnt were not very practical,or too difficult)have simply given up after a years training.

 

i understand that some people train martial arts for the mental as well as physical side.

 

but for me,i am only interested in the physical side(at the moment).

 

if you feel your making good progress,and the techniques are practical,its easy to keep training,and making progress.

 

but if the techniques are too difficult to learn,its very easy to loose enjoyment and give up.

 

at the end of the day,everyone wants something different from ma.

 

for me,learning useful skills quickly is most important,and not being too complex to learn is next.

 

so is judo better than jjj for me?

 

and to throw a "spanner in the works",how would wado ryu karate fit my requirements compared to judo?

 

thanks for all the replies already.