Evaluating Martial Arts Programs

[Phanixis]

I am new the martial arts in general. I recently spent several months studying Oom Yung Doe, Grandmaster 'Iron' Kim style, which is a form of traditional martial arts. After training for a couple of months and being well satisfied with the program, I was informed that in order to continue, I would have to embark a program spanning no less than six months that entailed enormous financial costs(at least $1500 per year, and I am unable to purchase less than one year at a time).

 

While not necessarily familiar with martial arts programs in general, I am aware of other programs that can be had for as low as $20 per month, and do not require me to commit all the money for an extended period of time up front, rather I simply pay as I go, and I can terminate the program at any time. Being on a rather tight budget, such programs are preferable.

 

My instructors inform me that these cheaper programs are clearly inferior, and are merely 'exercise' that will not bring me the true benefits of traditional martial arts training.

 

Naturally, I could use an unbaised opinion on the matter. What are the cost I should expect for good martial arts instruction? How can I identify the relative quality of a program? How much should I expect to pay for a serious martial arts course? Is there any circumstance in which paying over $1500 per year is justified for a beginner's training.

 

Thanks for your advise.

[delta1]

I can't immagine a martial arts program that is that expensive. $1500/yr is two to three times what you should be paying. And contracts, especially the expensive and long term kind, are one sign of a possible cheat/thief/clown running a McDojo. They sucker you in, then when you are just getting to enjoy it, but before you have the experience to tell you are not being taught anything worth while, they spring this on you. Did they tell you their style is too deadly to use in sparing or competition? Show you pictures of someone leaping off tall buildings- but with the camera angled up so you can't really see how high he is? Show their grand poo-butt atop a pyrimid of fallen and subdued foes? DO they require you to purchase their gear, or can you order from other sources? If any of this is the case, run away, fast.

My instructors inform me that these cheaper programs are clearly inferior, and are merely 'exercise' that will not bring me the true benefits of traditional martial arts training.

 

There are those types of schools, but there are some really good ones out there that charge a whole lot less, don't require you to sign your life away, and you'll probably find they teach a better style and method than that bunch.

 

If you like traditional martial arts, and want to take them for self developement, why should you have to ruin yourself financially to do it? And there are other types of martial arts that offer other bennifits- sports and competition, or reality and self defense. Who is this guy to tell you what you want out of the martial arts? I'd suggest that you look in the Getting Started section here, get some ideas about how to go about looking for a school, and leave the one you are with as soon as you can.

 

Sorry if I seem a little harsh, but these kinds of operations give the martial arts a bad rep, and they really frost my butt!

[equaninimus]

GET OUT NOW!!!

 

That group is essentially a cult. Here are some links to the fraud cases brought against them, and a thread on e-budo about them:

 

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/c/chung/

Leader:

 

John C. Kim, aka Chong Su Nim "Iron" Kim

 

Alternate Names of the Group:

 

Chung Moo Quan

 

Oom Yung Doe

 

8 Martial Arts for Health

 

 

 

The following information has been provided by former members of Chung Moo Doe:

 

Description of the Group:

 

This is a personality cult using a chain of martial arts schools as its "front". People, particularly men, are lured into the group thinking it's a martial arts school, and they're going to learn about self defense, getting in shape, etc. Instead, they're subjected to mind control techniques to essentially get them to worship Chung Moo's founder, John C. Kim. Exhorbitant lesson fees are charged, providing Kim and his people with large amounts of money. In 1996, Kim and several of his top people were convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States of America.

 

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/c/chung/indictment.htm

Chung Moo Members Indicted

 

On April 11, 1995, the following Chung Moo people were indicted for conspiracy to defraud the United States of America in violation of Title 18 U.S. Code, sec. 371:

 

John C. Kim, Thomas Martin Hnat, Thomas White, Kenneth Krisciunas, John Liska, Frank Kucia, Joselito Jakosalem, Nicholas Gallo, Thomas McGee, Sante Furio, Scott Gigliotti, Thomas Condon, Michael McKay, and Robert Sawinski.

 

In late August/early September 1996, the following people plead guilty to the charge.

 

Hnat, Gallo, McGee, Furio, Gigliotti, and Condon.

 

On Dec. 9, 1996, Kim, Kucia, Jakosalem and McKay were convicted by a jury of the charge.

 

White and Sawinski's trials ended in hung juries; Russ Johnson has informed me that they have each since plead guilty.

 

John Liska, apparently very ill, was to be tried separately; I don't know what eventually became of him.

 

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/cmd-tax.html

From the Chicagoland Daily Herald

 

Thursday, April 13, 1995

 

Martial arts schools' top brass charged with tax fraud

 

by

 

Laura Janota

 

Daily Herald Staff Writer

 

The top figures in a nationwide chain of martial arts schools were charged Wednesday by federal authorities with an income tax fraud scam spanning more than 20 years.

 

Nearly five years after raiding a number of John C. Kim's suburban martial arts schools, authorities said Kim and others skimmed large amounts of cash from operations to buy a Texas ranch, a California home and other assets.

 

The schools which were particularly popular in the region in the 1970s and '80s allegedly lured students into a martial arts program and charged them hefty fees, from $900 to $18,000 per course, without reporting all of that income.

 

Force and threats of force also were used as part of the consipiracy, a federal indictment said.

 

Kim was arrested Wednesday in California. He and 13 others from across the nation are scheduled to be arraigned April 20 in federal court.

 

Some of the schools were in Elmhurst, Lombard, Naperville, Schaumburg, Villa Park, Glenview and Oak Lawn. They went by various names, including the John C. Kim Style School of Chung Moo Quan and the John C. Kim Style School of Chung Moo Doe.

 

Most have since closed or are being run by other parties, authorities said.

 

Other schools were in Texas, California and Minnesota.

 

The schools had been the subject of a sweeping television investigative report.

 

The organization also was classified as a cult, with groups like the Cult Awareness Network in Barrington handing out information about questionable techniques allegedly used to lure students into submission.

 

While there are no charges that the operation itself was a fraud, authorities said Kim and his associates, demanded cash from students for courses, sometimes as much as $18,000 per course.

 

Meanwhile, they said, only a portion of that cash was reported to the Internal Revenue Service.

 

Authorities refused to say just how much Kim and his associates are accused of keeping from the IRS. They charge, however, that the conspiracy to avoid taxes was so well-planned that records were destroyed and coded books kept to conceal the scam.

 

In a prepared statement, U.S. Attorney James Burns called the alleged frauds that began in the 1970s through 1995 "a long-term, systematic and massive effort to thwart and violate the tax laws of this country."

 

Among those charged with participating in the income tax fraud conspiracy were Kim's "national instructors," who traveled around the country overseeing schools on Kim's behalf, authorities said.

 

They are Thomas Martin Hnat, 38, of California; Thomas White, 39, of California; Kenneth Krisciunas, 37, of Texas and California; John Liska, 42, of Texas; Frank Kucia, 43, of Minnesota; and Joselito Jakosalem, 40, of Minnesota.

 

Also charged were Kim's regional instructors, including Nicolas Gallo, 39, of Illinois and Texas; Sante Furio, 38 of California; Thomas McGee, 39, of Florida; and Scott Gigliotti, 35, of Texas.

 

Instructors Thomas Condon, 38, of Florida; Michael McKay, 34, of Pennsylvania; and Robert Sawinski, 34, of Washington, also were charged.

 

http://www.rickross.com/reference/chung/chung3.html

"Money was probably the least destructive aspect of the organization"

 

June 2000

 

By a former member of Oom Yung Doe

 

My husband and I left Oom Yung Doe (formerly Chung Moo Doe / Chung Moo Quan) and we are glad to be out. I have spent time researching Oom Yung Doe, its current activities and what I found is quite shocking.

 

Many of us who were taken advantage of by Oom Yung Doe feel that we cannot, in good conscience, stand back and allow this to continue and happen to others.

 

Based upon the results of my research I am convinced that Oom Yung Doe is still very much a destructive cult [sic]. The public face of the organization has changed dramatically since Kim's incarceration in 1996. We are now seeing a meticulously crafted, "kinder, gentler" image. The more extreme, heavy-handed tactics popular in the heyday of the organization appear less evident.

 

This deception is unmasked, however, once you get below the surface. The organization has not changed on a fundamental level--they have simply become more adept at "applying the con." Students are still routinely fed misinformation and twisted truths regarding the nature of their schools. Also, as they have done in the past, Oom Yung Doe continues to foster an "us against them" mentality, augmented by a false sense of the superiority.

 

To add to these concerns, I have learned that two of the recently released [from prison] national instructors are aggressively trying to integrate all of the old dogma back into the schools, which is in violation of the terms and conditions of their parole. People at one affected school waited to see what would happen after the return of a previously jailed national instructor. The events that followed confirmed fears of a return to the "old days." Some members left the organization rather than suffer again.

 

Oom Yung Doe has been, and continues to be a destructive force in the lives of many people.

 

Many members were bilked out of large sums of money in return for their loyalty and support.

 

For others, the devastation was on a much more emotional level. Many came to Oom Yung Doe seeking direction in their lives. Some were looking for a means to break free of the destructive downward spiral of alcoholism and drug abuse. Others were from dysfunctional families. It is easy to understand how such people became so dependent upon the constant direction and leadership of higher belts and instructors. Oom Yung Doe fosters such relationships.

 

In retrospect, money was probably the least destructive aspect of the organization.

 

By contrast, there were others, such as myself, whose lives were fairly balanced and well organized prior to any association with Oom Yung Doe. Many of us had real life goals, and enjoyed successful careers. One such goal was to learn, what many of us once believed--was a valuable martial art to the best of our abilities.

 

Some of us had our futures derailed. We were pushed to practice Oom Yung Doe to the best of our abilities to the complete exclusion of everything else. Marriages failed, careers ended, students dropped out of college due to the influence of the organization and its instructors. This is still happening today, but it just isn't as well publicized.

 

One member I spoke with not long ago told me, that under advisement from an instructor, he took a year off from college so that he could concentrate on his Oom Yung Doe training. He was told that the training would sharpen his mind, increase his concentration, and make him more determined--all of which would benefit him greatly in his studies. He never returned to school. His instructor convinced him that Oom Yung Doe would teach him "everything he needed to know."

 

Another member I have heard from left her husband as a result of his involvement with Oom Yung Doe. Her home life became so unbearable that she has moved out, and decided to stay somewhere "safe."

 

Someone else contacted me recently who wants to leave, but feels too intimidated to take the first step.

 

Arrogance and irresponsibility are, sadly, all too common of the organization today. How can they expect anyone to honestly believe that they or their instructors have any level of understanding regarding their student's lives and aspirations? How can such instructors hope to guide their pupils?

 

The real tragedy is that though money can be replaced--time and lost opportunities cannot. Many of us are still trying to put shattered lives back together--a process which could take years.

 

This all will continue as long as Oom Yung fails to maintain reasonable boundaries--separation between its practice, leadership and the personal lives of students.

 

Currently some suspiciously similar schools claim to be unaffiliated with Oom Yung, but I believe that this is only for appearances. I don't trust them. My hope is to educate the public.

 

The Oom Yung organization has stepped up its public relations efforts once again and schedules events such as blood-drives, kick-a-thons, etc.. I don't want to seem overly critical of an organization that appears to be doing a great deal for the community, but these events seem to be attempts to create good public relations with the ultimate goal of attracting new students.

 

There are several such groups throughout the East, with Oom Yung Doe Instructors teaching at Fitness and Senior Citizens Centers.

 

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10059&highlight=iron+kim

 

In short, these are bad people. Get out while you can!

[Red J]

Great work equaninimus!

 

Wherever you go, you should never feel like you are buying a car. People that have "the only way" clearly should be avoided.

 

Good luck.

[granmasterchen]

i agree, get out and hide from them.....1500 dollars is just insane, the only time i have heard that price for lessons is when my friend and i got personnally invited to train with the gracies back in the 90s during the time when the 3rd UFC came out , and that was for training with them and the trip and stay in brazil....so no, bad school...and according to the research that has been provided for you i would agree that it is bad instructors too....i am used to seeing prices ranging up to 40 dollars a month.....that will work out to 480 dollars a year....about a third of what you would be paying. So I hope that you find a nice small school that charges a decent amount that you actually like. Good luck.

[TheDevilAside]

I knew that sounded fimiliar! I remember that someone posted a topic a long time ago about this "martial art" and the grandmaster. Equaninimus is right, it really is a cult and "Iron" Kim Style is a fraud. I suggest, like all others have, that you leave this school immediately.

 

 

 

Even despite all of this, such a price is outrageous, especially since they're making it a long-term contract. I've heard of "mcdojos" ripping people off by roping them into expensive, long term commitments, but I've never heard of anything that severe.

[WolverineGuy]

Wow...my school charges you for equipment...that's it. So 1500 per year is a bit...er...insane.

 

Martial arts cults...what will they think of next?

[Phanixis]

Thanks for the advise. The program definitely seemed expensive, but I had no idea it was that bad. I must not have been in it long enough to witness many of the more serious things the posted links have stated, but some of the details on the less severe practices seem to be consistent. I guess I have more than just financial concerns as reason why to back out of Oom Yung Doe. However, the instructors did seem to be competent as far as teaching techniques leading to physical development and self-defense, but I probably won't be a good judge of competence until I try other martial arts programs. In any case I plan to keep clear of these people.

 

Thanks for all your advise and help.

[shotochem]

Well done Eq !!!!!

 

You beat me to the punch

 

Iron Kim is running a cult and has been for years. Run, dont look back,

 

there are many places to train and this one is not reccomended IMHO.