Jiu Jitsu in actual combat

[SevenStar]

I agree with treebranch... I have studied some ninpo taijutsu (aka ninjutsu). What you said about ninjutsu cant win a nhb competition or mma match... what about frank dux (he synthesized a ryu....dux ryu ninjutsu).I believe he could wreck any BJJ'er.

 

Where have you been the past 10 years man? Dux is a fraud...

 

ninpo/budo taijutsu is not made for your petty ground and pound competitions. It is much more... and the dojos train very hard and hardcore.

 

Show me your hardcore training and I will show you a sport fighter's regimen that is three times as intense. those "petty competitions" are the closest thing out there that allows you to safely test yourself. How do you test yourself? Or, do you even do so?

 

There is a concept of HANKA.. it means to create. In ninpo taijutsu it is the way of covering all the bases and letting the practitioner experiment with the time honoured techniques.

 

1. covering all bases is not a concept unique to ninpo.

 

2. "time honored" techniques aren't necessarily useful now. How often do people walk around carrying a naginata? a manriki gusari? And don't say "well. they could have a chain and use the manriki techniques", because I douubt there are many people carrying around chans. I don't want to hear about pressure points either. They are generally a nuissance at best, and are hard to apply against a resisting opponent.

 

By the way.. also watch a Hatsumi video and see if a BJJ'er can handle doing some of the things he can do at the age of 83.[b/]

 

By the way, helio gracie is like 85. Also, one of my judo coaches is 74. When jhoon rhee was in his 70's, he was still able to do over 100 push ups. Being able to be active like that is definitely not limited to hatsumi.

 

Ninpo/Budo taijutsu differs from BJJ because the goals of each martial art are different... in ninpo/budo taijutsu there are no holds barred... they fight dirty and cheap. You havent seen nhb until you see the way that a practitioner of ninjutsu practices...

 

How often do you practice it at full contact? even back in the day, kano's judo guys schooled the jj guys because the jj guys couldn't spar full contact due to the lethal locks and throws...

 

they are cheap and dirty and will win on the ground because they practice all of the cheap shots.

 

go ahead....extend your limbs against someone versed in ground work...that will result in something quickly getting locked and broken. If it's so effective on the ground, and since old UFCs were brought up earlier, why did that ninjutsu guy get TOOLED in ufc 2? Don't remember? Here's a pic: http://sherdog.com/fightfinder/pictures/P.SmithDefMorris_KO.jpg

 

the guy got KOed. If he is used to dirty tactics and such, you wouild think he coulda done something to stop those elbows he was eating...

 

And in the early UFCs, there were alot less rules than there are now.

 

I have only tried the bo and the jo in ninpo taijutsu and they go way past my bo training in karate. I hope youy dont ever have to mess with a ninpo/budo taijutsu man on the street because he/she will mess your s!$# right up.

 

yeah, yeah...

[SevenStar]

BJJ was proven in actual combat.

 

Umm... i've heard that spouted by more then a handful of people and i really want to address it.

 

Most martial arts have proven themselves in combat at one time or another. However, modern-day combat does not include much hand-to-hand, so any newer martial systems, such as bjj, really are only being included in the soldier's training program.. with minimal application in modern warfare.

 

Some cops and security guards use it. As do some bouncers out there.

 

The martial arts that truly have proven themselves in 'real' combat... are the ones that existed before firearms and explosives became the mainstay. However, things have changed over the centuries. What worked way back then, in the test tube of one society, doesn't necessarily work now, in the test tube of this society. A martial art system that stays rigid to its teachings can find itself 'behind the times,' per se.

 

very true.

 

 

Consider always the applicability to your potential threats. If i were in Africa and people were chasing me down with a machete, bjj would not be the system i would care to know. Seriously consider these things when stating that one system or another has been 'proven' in combat... because... the definition of combat changes according to the threat posed and the weapons implemented.

 

Also true.

[SevenStar]

The question is whether Jiu-Jitsu is effective for Combat. In my opinion, no. I'm saying this not to put down the system of BJJ, but even in NHB you have to cross train because of the lack of stand up skills as well as throws.

 

depends on the situation. 1 on 1, it's great. in a multiple attacker situation, no. For what it's worth, I would take a thai boxer over to have my back over both a bjj guy and a tjj guy.

 

By the way I don't think Frank Dux is recognized by the Bujinkan and I'm pretty sure he never studied Ninjutsu. He one of those guys who jumped on the 80's Ninja bandwagon.

 

yeah, he's a fake.

[SevenStar]

BJJ is one of the FEW systems, that has something like a "quality control" in their belts, so a black belt in BJJ isn't "supposed" to be good, he HAS to be, he has to PROVE it, BJJ it's not like other arts where they sell/give/ belts because they have time training or know some katas..

 

that's true. If you have a black belt in bjj, you definitely earned it.

[WolverineGuy]

I'm not saying cross training is bad...what I am saying is that a pure bjj'er can handle himself quite well on the street.

[Reklats]

Let's explore what kind of skills are needed in Combat and compare to the principles and tactics of BJJ. I think once you do this you will realize it is not designed for real Combat in the sense of battle against many vs. many.

 

Many vs. many? What? Where would you encounter a situation like that?

[Treebranch]

Sevenstar that guy that claimed he was from Ninjitsu was a Dux Ryu guy and an idiot to boot. There have been no Budo Taijutsu practitioners to compete in any NHB tournaments. The only guy who ever came close to being Ninjutsu was Steve Jenam and he had only studied Togakure Ryu for a short time. I think that anyone who has any real knowledge of Budo Taijutsu knows that it is a very well rounded art. It all really depends on what you want to use it for. Training can be modified for sport, but thats not what it's about. You're right about not training all the techniques full contact, only some stuff can be trained full contact. Strikes, kicks, evasions, some simple throws, grappling and takedowns. What many people don't understand until they study this stuff is that many of the throws and not meant to simply ground the person, but is designed to break and tear bone and tendons. Depending on the throw and proper technique more than likely the arm, shoulder, wrist, knee will break. I hyperextended my elbow pretty bad when a over zealous beginner threw me with one of the dangerous throws that we practice. By the way, I've been in real fights so I know the difference between training and reality and I haven't had any problem going full force. I'm sure that BJJ has non submission type locks that are meant to break and tear that can't be performed full force in training. There are many skills in everyday life that require you to practice slow before you can do it fast, it's not unheard of. Also, in many cases it is good to start slow and work your way up. So basically, the whole if you can't do it fast it's useless argument is not a very good one. Also I can't really speak for the TJJ guy or the Muay Thai guy, but I know that I've been able to handle myself quite well and that's all the proof I need. They weren't always one on one and only one of them went to the ground.

 

This is to everyone on this site Frank Dux is not recognized by the Bujinkan. He is not teaching any Ninjutsu I've ever seen or heard of. Please don't confuse what he does and what we do at the Bujinkan. Basically we do Samurai fighting arts with a little Ninjutsu.

[SevenStar]

You're right about not training all the techniques full contact, only some stuff can be trained full contact. Strikes, kicks, evasions, some simple throws, grappling and takedowns. What many people don't understand until they study this stuff is that many of the throws and not meant to simply ground the person, but is designed to break and tear bone and tendons. Depending on the throw and proper technique more than likely the arm, shoulder, wrist, knee will break.

 

Shuai Chiao does the same thing, but they have safe versions that they use at full speed.

 

I hyperextended my elbow pretty bad when a over zealous beginner threw me with one of the dangerous throws that we practice.

 

That happened to me (and has happened to many others) in bjj.

 

I'm sure that BJJ has non submission type locks that are meant to break and tear that can't be performed full force in training.

 

All of them are meant to break and tear. That's why we tap. If you don't tap, your partner may not know to stop, and things will break. My buddy got heel hooked and didn't tap fast enough - torn ligaments in his knee were the result. Several friends haven't tapped due to armbars, and have had joint probs - a break in one guy's case. There was a guy (not at my club) who got his bicep torn in half from a bicep slicer. Most of these njuries occured in competition, not in training, but illistrates my point.

 

There are many skills in everyday life that require you to practice slow before you can do it fast, it's not unheard of. Also, in many cases it is good to start slow and work your way up. So basically, the whole if you can't do it fast it's useless argument is not a very good one.

 

sure it is. If you are starting off slow, and I started off fast - or if I started off sparring, and you started off doing forms...who has more applicable experience?

 

 

[cross]

I read an article about a bjj black belt who witnessed a car being stolen and one of the guys got out of the car and aproached the bjj guy. Basically the other guys drove off in the car and the bjj guy took the man down and restrained him until police arrived.

 

Neither of them suffered injuries.

 

This shows that bjj 'can' be effective, just like any other style 'can' be effective. There are just loads of variables.

[White Warlock]

yes, and that story could have been quite different it "all" of the thieves exited the car, instead of just one.

 

Not quite sure what the point was with that story.