Jiu Jitsu in actual combat

[SevenStar]

WWII combatives consisted heavily of judo. some military progams today - MACMAP comes to mind, teach basic bjj with the rest of their curriculum. One of the guys I train with is a former SEAL - I'll ask him what the h2h they received consisted of. When was the last time budo taijutsu was taught in the military? I'm listening...

[SevenStar]

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm - scroll down to the new army combatives manual. It covers the mount, guard, passing the guard, throws and takedowns, etc. the older manuals have a lot of throws - you can find some on the same website. There is a lot of judo related stuff there.

[Treebranch]

Well Budo Taijutsu is basically Traditional or Combat Jujitsu which is to taught to Armed forces and Judo came from this stuff. Also BJJ is nothing new when it comes to ground work. I've seen variations of the same techniques in Kodokan Judo as well as Hapkido. So basically I'll go back to the original topic. BJJ is not good for Combat unless it only a part of the MA training. There are groundwork techniques in other arts that would suffice for Combat. Like you said Judo is heavily used in training forces and you can trace that back historically after WW2. True Jujutsu would have been better for Combat but Judo gained popularity at that time so there you go. I have nothing against either style, but Judo is far better an art for Combat than BJJ is. BJJ should put the striking and stand up throws back into the Jujitsu. I think we have seen that BJJ alone will not stand up in NHB and it sure as hell won't stand up to actual combat. Just admit that it is not a complete art and that it needs other arts to complete it to be rounded art.

[Venezolano]

That's your opinion, you can't say that Judo is a better art for combat than BJJ is.

 

That what you think, and every person thinks different things, i think that BJJ is one of the best art for real combat, also Judo, but IMHO budo taijutsu, kung fu isn't realistic and doesn't work, but that's my opinion i can say it's the only truth out there.

 

A pure BJJ fighter probably could not success nowdays in NHB world (althought that is debatable, for an example look at BJ Penn between others), but that is because nowdays fighters are more and more prepared, they train to fight in all distance, clinch, groundwork, stand up, but if you remember in the early NHB fights see what style dominated mostly that kind of events..

 

BJJ isn't a complete MA, i think none MA is, and that's why most people nowdays are doing cross-training in some disciplines to become efficients in all the fighting distances.

[Treebranch]

Venezolano what do you think Combat is anyway. What are you talking about? Are you comparing NHB with actual Combat? If you are you are delusional. No most NHB competitors cross train in Muay Thai and BJJ or Judo because that's what works best in a controlled environment, with set rules and a referree. Combat could mean fighting on an incline in the mountains, when it's raining, in the sand, in the snow with so much clothes on that you can't move the way you are used in your safe little Dojo. Are you taught how to fight when your hands are bound? Are you taught to fight when there is no way to take the fight to the ground? Do you know how to evade a knife or night stick? Can you fight with an armed opponent? Do you really want to shoot in on someone that may be hiding a knife behind him so you can't see it? Have you even considered any of these scenarios? Probably not. Why? Because BJJ doesn't teach Combat scenarios and Budo Taijutsu does. So what with the NHB fighters train in, what does that prove in the real world. You can't use ring tactics in real life. You don't have the time to pass the guard when a potential second or third attacker is near. Does BJJ teach you how scope out your surroundings, to check exits when you walk into a building? I'll answer for you. NO! That isn't their concern. Their concern is how to win in a match, not COMBAT.

 

So let it go bro. BJJ is not a Combat MA and it is not a complete art. Budo Taijutsu is as complete of an art that you will ever hear of. That's just a fact baby.

[Venezolano]

I'm talking about combat, combat for me is real fighting.

 

What you say is false, Muay Thai, BJJ, and Judo works very good in NHB controlled environments like you say and in the street because there arts that train realistic, and spar, and don't say "oh, this art is too deadly that we can spar ourselves because death hits.."

 

You talk about fighting in a mountain, raining with sand and a lot of trash, i ask you wtf are u talking about? i told you, stop watching power rangers movies, what are the chances to get a fight in a situation like that? i think it's less than 1%.

 

Am i teached how to fight when i can not takedown a person? YES, i have experience in other stand up styles so i feel i can defend myself on my feet althought y feel more confortable on the ground.

 

Can i fight with an armed opponent? surely not, i know some self-defense techniques against armed attackers (knife, sticks, etc), but i would try by all the time to get out there, run or whatever, o would not try to be a "Ninja turtle" and try to fight in that situation, it's so stupid... But my point is that you think that BJJ is only ground fighting and it's not, it also has self.defense, and by something it is being taught to US Marines, and differents security agencies around the world.

 

The fact that BJJ and other styles like Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, etc have been proved in NHB and had been very effective in the ring doesn't mean that they were created fot that purpose, in fact, if you read BJJ history for example, it was NOT created to be a sport, or to be in a "ring", so don't talk anything you don't know.

 

It makes me laugh that you always say the same "multiple attackers situation" argument against BJJ

 

"BJJ teach you how scope out your surroundings, to check exits when you walk into a building?"

 

No, like you say it isn't its conceirn, it conceirn is how to win a fight, that's all and that's enough for me.

 

BJJ IS a combat art, it was created for real combat and not for to fight in a ring like you think, and it has been proved during many many years (thing that your budo taijutsu can say ), it has defeated many styles in NHB matches including Ninjutsu, Kung Fu, etc, and THAT's A FACT BABY!, like i said you before, i don't say nothing about MA that work in "theory", PROOVE IT.

 

And as a last thing, i never said that BJJ is a complete art, it's the best groundfighting art outhere, but it lacks of takedowns, throws, strikes, etc.

 

Oh! i forgot it!, BJJ also doesn't teach how to use smoke bombs, and ninja stars, so it's MORE incomplete .... ROFL!

[Reklats]

bleeehhhhhh. Treebranch: I've been a member here for 6 months, and I've seen you ruin threads with this same old argument so many times.....

[WolverineGuy]

Tree, BJJ was proven on the streets of Brazil LONG before MMA was even thought of in the USA. Judo did the same thing before Carlos Gracie was introduced to Maeda way back in the 30s. The arts both do fine in real combat...better than most. I know that the marines are taught BJJ as part of their h2h training. I'm not knocking your style, please quit knocking one of my favorites. BJJ doesn't claim, nor has it ever, that it can fight off multiple opponents. Is that a weak point...perhaps, but if you're going to tell me that your style has the solution to that scenario, you're living in a fantasy world. You can train and prepare all you want, but there are too many variables in a multiple attacker situation for any style to completely prepare you. BJJ teaches you the best way to handle that situation: don't get in it in the first place.

[White Warlock]

You talk about fighting in a mountain, raining with sand and a lot of trash, i ask you wtf are u talking about? i told you, stop watching power rangers movies, what are the chances to get a fight in a situation like that? i think it's less than 1%.

No, more like 60%. Even higher if you are in a war, assuming a bullet doesn't take you out before you get into close combat.

BJJ teaches you the best way to handle that situation: don't get in it in the first place.

No, common sense teaches you that.

 

Okay, i want to state a few personal opinions. BJJ is 'not' the ultimate system. NHB is 'not' real. The streets of Brazil are 'not' that tough, in comparison to many other places in the world.

 

Budo taijutsu is also 'not' the ultimate system. Strategies and defenses against multiple attackers do exist in various systems, but the fact of the matter is... it is a disadvantageous situation. Training in strategies and defenses can 'help' you to come out on top, but there is no 'magic pill.'

 

Now, Venezolano, it is clear that have not trained in budo taijutsu, and definitely not at length. TreeBranch, same goes for you. You also have not trained in bjj, and definitely not at length. The fact that you two are arguing about which system is better, by standing on a pedestal of ignorance, is just plain silly.

 

I have trained a bit in both, and i can tell you that 'both' have shortcomings.

 

Now, both of you ... please... empty your cup and compare by presentation, rather than insults and chest beating. Discuss this with civility, because both of you can learn from each other... as long as you put your egos to the side. You two are drawing lines in the ground and kicking sand in each other's face. Doing so merely hardlines your behaviors and closes your minds. But worse, it encourages ridiculous posturing and outrageous claims.

 

Drop it. Nobody is an island and no one system is a cruise ship. This is my last post in this thread, unless tones change. The disrespect exhibited here is way out of line.

[WolverineGuy]

BJJ teaches you the best way to handle that situation: don't get in it in the first place.

No, common sense teaches you that.

 

Dude, all I was saying was that's BJJ's philosophy. Not that I learned that from BJJ. Sheesh.