Studying Swordsmanship and other traditional weapons.

[delta1]

OK, I don't want to hijack this thread, and I certainly don't want to get into a gun control debate (and won't, should any one try to). But this is a weapons forum, and there are some statements in the following post that I consider dangerously wrong. If you ever find yourself in a confrontation where one or more firearms are present, whether you have one or are facing one, these misconceptions could get ypu killed.

...Projectile firearms are considered the "equalizers" of man. With the development of firearms, anyone, regardless of personal mastery or respect of human life, wielded power.

 

Practically anyone can learn how to fire a pistol and master its use in a matter of weeks.

 

For the pistol requires one to but point and click,

 

That concept has been around since the first weapon was created. And some people do have that idea about firearms. They are wrong! It takes skill to use a firearm- skill that is only gained through study and practice. As martial artists, if we are going to use a firearm I think we should go at it with the idea of learning those skills as well as any others. To do less is exactly like picking up a sword and swinging it wildly; you may feel invincable, and you may even be able to do in your opponent, unlesss he knows what he's diong. You can also hurt yourself or get yourself killed with your own sword or gun.

Delving into the sword, you will find the ultimate tool as an extension of man's ability to take life, but which required an unquestionable respect for life, and for death, in order to master.

 

...a sword is not a reasonable weapon for modern-day self defense, ... But its value should not be dismissed, for it teaches, better than most any other weapon, the value of human life. A pistol cannot teach you that. In fact, it can teach you just the opposite.

 

Neither a pistol or a sword can teach you anything. But both can be used as vehicles to teach those values. It is your morals, not the weapons in either case, that determines how they are used. Goes for ma skills of all types.

The fact that it requires so little training to use a gun is what bothers me the most about them. People can pick one up and they think they somehow have gained 'ultimate power,' like the power-up ball in some morbid video game. But, in truth, all they have obtained is an extension of their ignorance. They point, click, and take a life... and then wonder how many bullets are left... and how many more lives they could take before having to reload.

 

Pointing and clicking means missing. Again, the skills of aquireing a target and squeezing off a round in a controled manner requires practice to ingrain them into muscle memory. You have to do it right, without thinking!

As a self-defense weapon, a pistol is only effective if you 'already' have it in-hand, cocked, loaded, removed from safety, and pointed at the threat.

 

No, there are techniques to protect a weapon, as well as to deploy it under attack,from any range or direction. If you are going to carry, plan on a lot more training.

 

I'll let everyone here decide for themselves how they choose to defend their home. But if you do opt for a firearm, you need to choose the right one for the job (more study and research). Also, the right ammunition so that it doesn't overpennetrate structures. And everyone in the house must be trained in how to react with the firearm present (or sword, if you choose that). And combat in a building is a whole nuther animal (you guessed it, more study and training). Oh, and in this case, I don't care what the law says, if anyone is stupid enought to keep a home defense weapon locked up, with a trigger guard, and unloaded..., well, Darwin wasn't all wrong.

Prevention and preparation. A well-thought escape protocol is far more likely to save the lives of your family than any weapon. Secure your doors and windows, install an alarm system, and organize a family-security pattern (a drill). Just like in the streets, the best thing to do if your home is invaded... is get everyone the hell out. In the end, the best home defense just so happens to be the same as the best personal self-defense... Common sense and a good pair of running shoes.

 

Agreed. The misconception here is that if you have a gun, you'll stand and fight regardless. Part of our Old West heritage, I guess. But that comes from too many movies. There was actually only one documented case where two gunfighters squared off on the streets in the classic shootout (and it was not the OK Corral). Leaving with your family intact is best when you can. But if you can't, use whatever advantage you have. And even when you can, it would be best to have someone who knows how to use a gun covering your rear as you retreat.

 

Treat any weapon, and any opponent, with respect, whether training or useing it. Guns are no exception. But never pick one up and think you can use it because it is so simple. Pointing and clicking a gun is like young Zoro telling old Zorro "The pointy end (of the sword) goes in the other man... ." Right!

[White Warlock]

It took me 2 minutes to learn how to load, aim and fire a pistol... and hit the target. Some people are intimidated by guns, and that prevents them from handling it with any degree of skill. But, those who intend to use it for harm, gain sufficient training to kill their 12 year old neighbor.

 

It took me over 3 years to learn how to strike a moving target with a sword, and not have the sword come flying out of my hands, or my finger get lodged into my eyeball from the reverberating effect of a misaligned strike. The study of swordsmanship requires that one work on the body AND mind. It "does" change the way you think and react to things, primarily because it is not an overnight study.

 

It is not reasonable to assume a sword is a stick that one can pick up and strike at someone. Granted, any idiot can pick-up a sword and swing it around... but the moment he tries to hit something with it, he'll need a cast for his wrist and a bag for his toes.

 

And, while a person picking up a pistol can shoot off his toes as well, it would be due to stupidity, rather than lack of training.

Oh, and in this case, I don't care what the law says, if anyone is stupid enought to keep a home defense weapon locked up, with a trigger guard, and unloaded..., well, Darwin wasn't all wrong.

I am not sure if you have (or intend to have) children, but good luck in trying to keep something out of their hands. An action like this, when you have children in the home, will definitely validate Darwin's theories and leave you without offspring.

[White Warlock]

Wanted to touch upon one more thing here, before closing off this tangent.

Projectile firearms are considered the "equalizers" of man

I wrote that and, after delta1's comment, felt the need to clarify.

 

Anyone can wield a gun with equal devastation. Regardless of whether you are a child or an elderly woman, a scrawny bookworm, or a musclebound imbecile, a gun has the same potential and can produce the same results. This is what is meant by "equalizers."

 

Clearly, this cannot be said of someone wielding a sword.

 

....... ............. ............. ......

 

Now, returning to Sasori_Te's discussion...

The gist of my original post is that if you are going to be training in traditional weapons, have an understanding as to why you are doing it.

Agreed. If you don't really know why you are training in the use of a weapon, then you should not.

Then think about whether or not your reasons are valid because the plain fact is, most traditional weapons cannot be legally carried on your person at all times. The only weapon that I have found that fits this bill is the cane. I have yet to find a place that it can't be taken.

Most of these laws were created in the 70's due to an incredibly large amount of injuries sustained from 'kiddies' and 'teens' attempting to emulate Bruce Lee. They're old laws, and unfair. The truth of the matter is, you are allowed to carry a sword or knife on your person (as long as it is not in your hand), but you cannot carry a tonfa, sai, or nunchakus... unless you are transporting it to or from your training studio (nice thing about that is, the definition of a training studio is 'anywhere you train'). Go figure...

 

As to the weapons i study, it is the nunchakus, a variety of swords, throwing weapons (knives, coins, etc), manriki-gusari, bullwhip, steelwhip, short and long staff.

 

The reason i study the nunchakus is partly due to the overall physical benefits of being able to work and control such diverse weapons, especially dual wielding heavy nunchakus. Really builds up your arm speed, wrist strength and independent functions. I find it is also very intimidating, but have yet to use it for defense, at home or otherwise.

 

I find the study of throwing weapons to be very applicable to everyday self defense. The ability to grab the coins from your pocket, or the butterknife from the dinner table, and have them smack against someone's forehead... if it doesn't stop them straight out, it will at least provide sufficient distraction for me to close the gap.

 

Short and long staff... functional. I would recommend every martial artist spend time learning how to 'effectively' wield these weapons... for they are the most common of items to encounter in the streets.

 

Bullwhip, steelwhip... fun as all get out.

 

Manriki-gusari. A 2 foot long chain with wieghts at the ends... a must for any person who wears a belt that doesn't really need to hold their pants up. The chain is an essential weapon to learn, because it is so vastly different than other types of weapons. Learning flexible weapons allows you to expand your options when having to improvise on the streets.

 

Swords... well, i just like them. I find them to be virtually perfect. It's a personal thing and i suppose Delta1 and I will have to agree to disagree on this part, as i'm biased.

 

Oh, and guns? I don't own a handgun. I used to own a rifle, but it was stolen. I am proficient with them and plan to purchase a handgun later. Any recommendations? Ruger 9mm seems to be the pistol most everyone has been pushing on me, although i was initially aiming for a Colt .45 .

Edited March 19, 2004 by White Warlock

[Sasori_Te]

Firstly, if you're looking to purchase handgun try a Sig Sauer .40 caliber. It is an awesome pistol. I had one until my wife and I had a child. Darn but those German engineers are good.

 

Now, secondly, all the places where I live say you can only carry a bladed weapon on your person if the blade is 3" or under in length. You can only carry a hunting knife if it has a belt clip or a sheath. This puts you in the same depatment * a gun because you can't just go where ever you want with it. As for carrying a Katana around, I'm pretty sure someone might stop you and ask you what you were doing. The law and the letter of the law are often two different things.

 

I would recommend training with a cane to everyone with an interest in self defense. You can still carry a cane on an airplane. I'm not saying you need to go out and become a member of Canemasters or Goju Shorei Weapons. If you can use a bo or jo you can use a cane.

 

Again, for a firearm I'd take a look at the Sig Sauer line.

[White Warlock]

The law and the letter of the law are often two different things.

No arguments there.

 

I'll check out the Sig Sauer. Anyone else have ideas/input on pistol types?

[delta1]

I'll check out the Sig Sauer. Anyone else have ideas/input on pistol types?

 

Sigs are a good make. Whatever you get, a double action with decock is the way to go. The .40 is a good caliber, but it does have the problem of overpenetration. I still prefer the .45 ACP- plenty of mass to do the job but without the hyper velocity.

 

The .40 was developed because the FBI had to admit that they had made a major blunder going to the (worse than useless) 9mm. But they couldn't admit they were completely wrong so they put out the word they were looking for a new and improved round for general issue. They still manage to shoot themselves in the foot regularly no matter what they carry. Give them a water pistol and they'd probably find a way to drown themselves.

 

For function, reliability and easy maintenance, there are a lot of good 1911 model .45 ACP's on the market. It's single action, but it has seen more action and performed superbly under more severe conditions than any other combat pistol. I carried one for years, and outshot some pretty good pistoleros with their Sigs, and other newer model pistols, and on some difficult courses. But if you go that route, you need someone to teach you how to use it that knows what they are doing. Most people don't, and that includes those trained by our military after the early '50s.

[Sasori_Te]

I agree Delta. I could never get the hang of firing a 1911A. For the most part they were all old and they rattled because their parts were so old that they were wearing away. The best I ever did with one was to qualify sharpshooter. I liked the stopping power but the aiming point seemed to be different than any other pistol that I've ever shot. Browning also has a new .50 cal revolver out that looks to be outstanding if you need to shoot through armored cars or cement.

[delta1]

Now to the previouse posts. White Warlock, I didn't have much time last night, so I'm sorry if I sounded abrupt. I didn't mean to dump on you, as usually your posts are pretty knowlegable. But this is a subject that has a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there, and it can be dangerouse. If you want to get a firearm, my suggestion is to get some good training before and after you get it.

 

 

It took me 2 minutes to learn how to load, aim and fire a pistol... and hit the target.

 

Not correctly and reliably. And certainly not if you just point and click/shoot. There is a lot that goes in to making a good, reliably accurate shot. Proper grip, stance or rest, position, sight allignment and sight picture, effects of trajectory and wind. Proper target selection is an art and science in itself. And, in self defense situations, there is a lot of psychology and physiology involved. In two minutes, you might have been familiarized, but you were not made proficient.

The study of swordsmanship requires that one work on the body AND mind. It "does" change the way you think and react to things, primarily because it is not an overnight study.

 

That is true of any discipline, including firearms use.

while a person picking up a pistol can shoot off his toes as well, it would be due to stupidity, rather than lack of training.

 

A good dose of either could give that result. An untrained or poorly trained person with any weapon, including a gun, is usually a greater hazzard to themselves than any one else.

I am not sure if you have (or intend to have) children, but good luck in trying to keep something out of their hands. An action like this, when you have children in the home, will definitely validate Darwin's theories and leave you without offspring.

 

I have several children, and they all grew up with loaded and accessable firearms in the house. Never an accident or mishap. They learned how to safely handle firearms long before they went to school (obviously, this is different for a child than an adult). There was no mystery to attract them, and in fact it was a good opportunity to start grounding them in respect and safety for all weapons and tools. Darwin, before he died,saw and admitted he was wrong. Could this argument be one reason for that?

Projectile firearms are considered the "equalizers" of man. I wrote that and, after delta1's comment, felt the need to clarify. Anyone can wield a gun with equal devastation. Regardless of whether you are a child or an elderly woman, a scrawny bookworm, or a musclebound imbecile, a gun has the same potential and can produce the same results. This is what is meant by "equalizers."

 

They are considered an equalizer because in the hands of a competant man or woman, even though they are weaker than their opponent, they have roughly the same chance as an armed bad guy of equal skill. Can't say that about other weapons or empty hand combat. But in the hands of an idiot, any weapon is worse than useless. Guns aren't magical, they can't hit a thing. The shooter either hits or misses, and the only guarantee he has is the ammount of training and the quality of care maintenance he's invested in his weapon.

 

Speaking of magical qualities, for some reason many people invest firearms with some supernatural, mystical power. When a person pulls a gun but does not shoot, he usually expects the gun to control the situation. This is a dangerouse assumption. It is not who holds the gun that wins, but who controls it. If your mindset is to let the gun control the confrontation, in order to shoot you first have to change that mental reference. This may give a trained opponent time to succesfully attack, either getting control of your weapon or deploying and useing one of his own. You're dead- should have studied and practiced more. Panic and jerk the trigger and you can miss a large man at less than five feet. Shoot a semi-auto with an improper grip and you may get a smokestack jam, too bad if the first round didn't do the job. At all military ranges there used to be an eyebrow in the dirt in front of the targets at 15 yds, plowed there by hundreds of servicemen who were taught the improper grip for a 1911 pistol. 15 yds, and they wouldn't even have blown off a toe, and this against paper! Lack of proper training is a guarantee of nothing, but that failure is probable.

 

Another good example of improper use is fireing from a vehicle used as a barricade. I allways cringe when I see some supposedly trained officer lean over a car hood for cover and support. You can't move quickly enough to react to a changing threat from this position. Worse, the hood of that car when struck by a bullet may deform and guide the round right to the officer, changing a miss to a hit in the torsoe or head. Could you, with only a basic familiarization with your sidearm, do better? If the bad guy(s) get upstairs to your kids before you, do you know how to clear a stairwell? What about a hall? Or ingress to a room? That, for a martial artist, is part of the package of skills you need to use a firearm for home defense. And, it ain't learned quickly or easily.

 

For anyone that wants to learn to use or to defend against a firearm, I recomend you aproach that training with every bit as much dedication as any other martial training. Don't let emotions, either fear or arrogance, uncertainty or the idea you already have enough skills, cloud your judgement here.

[delta1]

I could never get the hang of firing a 1911A. For the most part they were all old and they rattled because their parts were so old that they were wearing away. I liked the stopping power but the aiming point seemed to be different than any other pistol that I've ever shot.

 

The 1911 was made loose so it was reliable under extremely adverse conditions, like crawling through the mud or snow with it then depending on it to save your life. But, for all that, it is an accurate firearm. The problem most people have with shooting it is that they were taught to carry it in a ready position at the side of their head, muzzle up. It was not designed to be carried like that, rather muzzle down in front of you. This is due to the angle of the grip with respect to the barrel and slide assy. You can see this difference looking at pictures of the 1911 and a more modern semi-auto like the Sig. To see the effect, try this:

 

Hold your arm up like it has a pistol in it in the newer 'safer' position by your face. (As a bonus to this exercise, take a minute to note that your peripheral vision is now blocked- nice thing to do in a gunfight where you are trying to locate your opponent.) Back to the main point- quickly point your arm like you are aquireing a target with a pistol, and freeze. Look at your wrist, it has a natural tendency to break forward. Now hold it down in front of you (take a moment to enjoy the unlimmited view), now bring it up quickly and sight. Look at your wrist- it tends to break upward. With the 1911 this is the proper grip, and the proper way to hold the pistol when searching. Now, think of the effect of shooting from eithre ready carry and you can see why the eyebrow I mentioned in my previouse post. You can learn to compensate with a high ready position, but it takes practice.

 

Edit: to be fair, there are times when you would want to carry your pistol in the muzzle up ready position. One example would be in clearing the stairwell in my previouse post.

[White Warlock]

I didn't mean to dump on you, as usually your posts are pretty knowlegable.

Delta, once again i am reminded that i know too much.

 

You are correct. There is more to pistols and rifles. I learned at a very early age (and then later in the army) about projectile weapons, their proper use and their maintenance. As well, i received urban combat training and studied a bit on my own. I take it for granted nowadays, as i sometimes do with the martial arts.

 

Or, more aptly, i take it for granted that not everyone else knows these things i deem as 'common sense,' which is likely why i still grimace, and expect everyone else to, when i see movies where Antonio Banderas is whipping his pistols at his targets, where tv cops are shooting off the top of vehicles rather than from the side, where those in moving vehicles somehow have better aim than stationary shooters, and where revolvers fire 16 bullets in a stretch.

 

And, as for real life, i do recall how annoying it was to watch people holding their breath while firing, allowing their heartbeat to bounce their sight, or when they would place a finger on the edge of the chamber of a semi-automatic. Even worse, when they would park their eye close to the sights or hold their semi-auto or auto weapon at a left-tilted angle, allowing the spent cartridge to either lodge back in the chamber or land on their exposed skin. And then, of course, the always entertaining injuries sustained from underestimating the recoil of a large calibre pistol or rifle. But it's been awhile since i watched a n00b fire a weapon.

 

As well, you are right... attitude in recognizing that a gun is not an entity and therefore cannot decide the outcome of an event... again... common sense to me. But, as it is, i cross-train, so there are many things i apply 'across-the-board,' as they are universally applicable.

 

There's a lot that i do assume. I suppose, if anything, that would be my flaw. All in all, it is nice to gain additional information and i do appreciate your knowledge in this area. Especially enjoyed the insight into the proper wielding of the 1911. Expect me to pester you on occasion, as it is clear to me you carry the clip.

I have several children, and they all grew up with loaded and accessable firearms in the house. Never an accident or mishap. They learned how to safely handle firearms long before they went to school (obviously, this is different for a child than an adult). There was no mystery to attract them, and in fact it was a good opportunity to start grounding them in respect and safety for all weapons and tools.

I'm still going to give you a hard time about this. It is good that there were no accidents or mishaps. But, the point standing is that it 'can' happen and the courts will find you at fault. Children, regardless of their training, are vulnerable and susceptible to such things as 'peer pressure' and being a 'dumbass.' I refuse to advocate such an action. Few parents have the training, train their children, have the common sense, or have children with common sense. Just far too many variables.

 

On an individual basis, if i knew the persons and their children, i may state otherwise... but on a sweeping statement... nope.

Darwin, before he died,saw and admitted he was wrong. Could this argument be one reason for that?

He was under duress from the Church. Remember the times...