"mcdojo"

[equaninimus]

As far as the comparison of time to BB in the 1960s and 1970s, I would venture that it was not uncommon for students in that era to train 3-4 hours/night, six days/weeek. If this was the case, then the shorter amount of time to dan grades makes a great deal of sense. Anecdotally this seems to have been the standard, there was also more emphasis on kumite, and less emphasis on "control," so many of those who practice now would likely not have remained in those classes.

 

I started in 1981, right about the time the "McDojo" phenomenon was becoming widespread (here in Denver, it was thanks to Stephen Oliver and his "Mile High Kuh-ruddy" chain of schools), and do see a major difference in the intensity of practice and level of commitment and technique from students when I compare it to the "good old days."

 

Karate is now firmly considered an After school activity, like youth soccer, and a martial art second. Shcools such as the one I attend, where the emphasis is on develoiping strong technique and self defence abilities are becoming harder to find.

[CloudDragon]

White Warlock,

 

In response to your thoughts:

 

My statement about 3 years of time to get a black belt is meant to be in training time, so personal life does not have a bearing on that statement. At no time did I say a student should get a black belt without earning it. I think that if an instructor is meant to be an instructor, they will be able to guide the average student to mastery of the basics within three years of training time. Think about this, the basics of most martial arts are mostly physical, there are no metaphysical, political or other lofty achievements required. All you have to do is be able to punch, block, kick and stand, with variations on those ideas. The human body will only move in so many directions and my thought is that a student should be able to learn these movements that are specific to that art within three years.

 

The black belt that Chuck Norris earned was in Tang Soo Do. I believe at that time he had a brown belt in judo, but this had no effect on his position in the TSD Dojang. I read this in his autobiography, I don't have a copy of it anymore, but you might want to check on ebay or amazon for one, it is a great read.

 

As to your note about the school in Sacremento, I never said there was no such thing as a McDojo, and all that were labeled as such were undeserving. Your story proves that. But from my perspective many of the McDojo accusations I have seen are from people who slander the other schools because of high enrollment or the fact that the school has a good business plan and is doing financially well. That is where my jealousy statement comes from.

 

The point I was trying to make with my post is that a long time to black belt is a Mcdojo like practice that many martial artists fall for. To me this is ridiculous. Schools should offer their students progressive instruction that continually challenges them physically and mentally without compromising quality.

 

Thank you for such a well thought response to my post!

[Bretty101]

...But from my perspective many of the McDojo accusations I have seen are from people who slander the other schools because of high enrollment or the fact that the school has a good business plan and is doing financially well...

 

CloudDragon, I think you summed up the term Mcdojo in one there!!!

 

Mcdojo is without doubt associated with high enrollment and high income (£$£$'s). How this reflects on the standard of the instructor or students is arguable and I think thats what people are getting at.

 

Bretty

[CloudDragon]

Bretty, I agree with you, high student to instructor ratios can be detrimental to learining. However, many people see a school with alot of students and automatically start making decisions. They never enter the school or talk to the owner.

 

I was invloved with a school that taught traditional TKD. There were over 150 enrolled, this was enough to get the accusations going from those who think that a martial arts school should have no more than 30 or 40 members. What they heard was the classes were held on a full size basketball court with 4 classes a night and about 30-40 students in a class.

 

Here is what the gossips didn't find out: there were 2 or 3 black belt instructors in each class, plus the head insturctor, who circulated among the groups, and 3 or 4 senior students (brown belt and above, all were adults). After warmups the class was broken down into groups with 10 or less students. The real crux is that they were called a Mcdojo because of enrollment! The rates were reasonable, about 10 to 20 percent of the school was students with other martial arts backgrounds. They occasionally participated in open tournaments and did well, and yet they were still called a Mcdojo! I took the training I got there and worked several years in casino and bar security, during which I was involved in a handful of physical incidents. Each time the techiniques I was taught worked exactly as they should and I was never seriously injured. Guess what? I went back to visit the school a few years ago and they are still being called a Mcdojo!

 

What I would like to see is people not judging a school by its enrollment, remember do your research before applying labels. You might be looking over a great school for the wrong reasons!

[White Warlock]

The black belt that Chuck Norris earned was in Tang Soo Do. I believe at that time he had a brown belt in judo, but this had no effect on his position in the TSD Dojang. I read this in his autobiography, I don't have a copy of it anymore, but you might want to check on ebay or amazon for one, it is a great read.

I purchased his book, but haven't read it yet. I will, eventually.

[Bretty101]

Bretty, I agree with you, high student to instructor ratios can be detrimental to learining...

 

CloudDragon, I'm agreeing with you. My arguement is what difference does it make if a club is a Mcdojo or not?!

 

I'm my club we have a 'beginners' class (1hr) with 200 students followed by a 'senior' class (1hr) of 150 students. We teach each as one big group. To some people this screams Mcdojo!! but using what logic?

 

We are a large university club, the instructors don't make huge sums of money. That is 2 master instructors and 3 assistant instructors (myself included). But if we did what difference does it make? We have some dedicated students of a really high standard, and some not so dedicated of a poorer standard.

 

The same as when I used to train at a 'traditional' TKD club. The instructor used to just break even to subsidise him and his families training. No way was it a Mcdojo yet the standards were the same, Some really dedicated students of a high standard and some not so good.

 

So i totally agree with the statement...

many of the McDojo accusations I have seen are from people who slander the other schools because of high enrollment or the fact that the school has a good business plan and is doing financially well...

[equaninimus]

I think quality is the main determinant of "McDojo" status, in terms of "your check cleared, here's your belt."

[karateguy24]

I agree that the word Mcdojo is in the eye of the beholder. Every one has there defintion of a "Mcdojo" the author of this thread is right. Just try it out and see if you like it. or if you don't think a place is for you move on.

 

Of course I do agree if two diffrent schools teach the same style. One school it takes 4 years or more to get a black belt and the other school takes one year to get a black belt. and you can tell the level of the black belts is below those of your school as far as basics that are worked and as far as technical profiency then I would say its a mcdojo. but again that is in the eye of the beholder

 

maybe some people at that school think the instructor at my school is a jerk. and think mine is a mcdojo. So its in the ey of the beholder.

[SevenStar]

I think that every post here has made a valid point or points. I think that most of the people who stamp others with that label usually do so because of jealousy in one respect or another, so they take some point about the other school and proclaim that it is wrong and the school is not a valid dojo. I have one thought about one of the most contested issues: time to black belt.

 

I think that it shouldn't take more than 3 years to attain a black belt. After all, the most accepted definition of the skill level of a black belt is that they are a student who has mastered the basic concepts of their art. If it takes you longer than that to learn the basics of an art, then you are being swindled or not being properly taught. If you do research you will find that before the 1970's and the mass importation of martial arts into the US, (yes I know it started in the 50's & 60's, but it really expanded in the 70's) A black belt was awarded in 1-2 years on average. Example, Chuck Norris got his black belt in about a year, anyone want to tell him his isn't legit? Anyway, if it takes you a long time to earn your black belt I feel that you are being cheated because your instructor or association is milking you for $$$ because they probably won't keep you after your black belt beacuse they have little more to offer. Thank You for your kind attention to my rant.

 

That post is the very reason there are so many of these McSchools today.

 

As for Norris, I don't think that's true - I used to train at one of his schools. Even if it is, he trained 6 days a week, for about 5 hours a day, while he was in Korea. He trained in both judo and tang soo do. When he left Korea, he was a black belt in TSD and a brown in judo. So, however long he was in korea is how long he trained before getting his black belt.

[CloudDragon]

That post is the very reason there are so many of these McSchools today.

 

Care to expand on that?

 

As for Norris, I don't think that's true - I used to train at one of his schools. Even if it is, he trained 6 days a week, for about 5 hours a day, while he was in Korea. He trained in both judo and tang soo do. When he left Korea, he was a black belt in TSD and a brown in judo. So, however long he was in korea is how long he trained before getting his black belt.

 

Hey I'm just telling what I read in his autobiography, any problems with that should be taken up with Mr. Norris.