"mcdojo"

[crash]

How many of you are honestly getting sick of hearing this word?. I know I am. it seems that on almost every m.a. forum on the net theres someone asking "is this school a mcdojo?" or "is this instructor legitimate?." Now I understand that to someone new, trying to choose a good school or instructor can be somewhat confusing, but the only real way to find out is to get in there and try it out. Sure, do some research, speak with some of the students and so forth. but you cant go by a general label that someone else may apply to every style except the one he studies. Because guess what in one way or another everyone here belongs to a "mcdojo". yes I'm sorry to break the news to you but your school is a "mcdojo". you dont believe me? I'll prove it to you. If you train traditional its a "mcdojo", why? because according to some ppl, traditional wont hold up to an altercation in todays times, and besides, who needs all that philosophy anyways. Do you train for sport, well that teaches you to pull your punches, thats not good. must be a "mcdojo".Do you have to sign a contract? oooh, big sign of a "mcdojo". Dont belong to a large organization with links straight back to japan?, uh oh must be a "mcdojo". Do belong to a large organization and have many certificates and b.b. hall of fame affiliation?, still a "mcdojo"(too much info). small school/club with an instructor no ones ever heard of?,"mcdojo". Large school with many chains of smaller schools?, sorry, still a "mcdojo". See what I'm getting at ?. That word "mcdojo" and its many meanings just compounds the confusion already felt by someone new to the arts, so just forget that word and if you see a school/style you would like to learn something about then try it out. true, dont sign a long term contract right off, and you should'nt have to, most places will/should give you 2-3 months to decide if its for you, so jump in and try it out. if the instruction is good and you are happy training there what more can you ask for?. sorry for the rant and no offense to anyone here asking about "mcdojo's", I do understand the confusion you may have, but dont let the word "mcdojo" add to that confusion. just apply a little common sense to your search and good luck finding what your looking for.

[Drunken Monkey]

um, not really.

 

a traditional school isn't a mcdojo (for your reason) because the art taught is real and recognised to be so.

 

normally, making the art work is up to you and how you train (the school acts as a guide to help you achieve what you want).

 

sport places are not mcdojos because they teach you to do well in what you train for, sport/display/performances.

 

contracts are often linked to insurance purposes.

 

you have to see why and what the contract binds you to (must attend for 6 days a week or else pay 4x the normal listed price unless you pay a waiver of $600 before teaching commences... cannot tell or show or exchange what you are taught... must obey...).

 

it is what is in the contract, not the contract itself taht is the sign.

 

not belonging to an organisation does not mean a thing.

 

in some cases, it is the big organisations that are the route of the money grabbing problem.

 

mcdojos are a problem for too many reasons and it isn't just a case of 'if you're happy...'

[tommarker]

I too grow weary of the "McDojo" alarm going off.

 

At times it seems that:

 

McDojo = "Any school that does even the most minute thing differently than mine."

 

Remember in high school when there had to be SOMETHING wrong with the people who dress differently, listen to different music, enjoy school, hate school, etc?

 

(I had something here, but I decided it would hit too close to home for 50% of the board. Nevermind)

[Drunken Monkey]

maybe we all have different views on what a mcdojo is...

[Pacificshore]

Crash,

 

You've made many valid points. I was training last night with my son's karate teacher, and we got a little into a discussion about how our training was back in the day compared to what it would be like today. We touched on the term "McDojo" "MacDojo", and came to the conclusion that they do exist for purpose of making money, and not the quality of training they provide. Heck, I've seen it first hand when a close friend/training partner of mine ran a TKD school for his boss. It was all about how much money he could pull in a month, and how much product he could move onto his students. Now my friend wasn't into the whole idea, but it was his job and main source of income, so he did what he had to do to get paid. Eventually he quit and now all is well in terms of his maritial arts training and ways of passing his knowledge on to others.

 

You make a good point that all schools, dojos, clubs, etc. shouldn't be labeled a "McDojo" based on certain aspects of what they offer the student. It is also very wise for the student to try a place out first hand, and do as much research into the place before joining. After all, it will be that person's ultimate choice as to whether they join or not. Or if they are receiving the training that works for them.

 

In the end, I don't think anyone person can tell another what a particular dojo is like unless they've had first hand experience with the place, and it's more than one person saying the same thing about the place. One person's opinion dosen't necessarily make the majority, and what isn't good for one person dosen't mean it isn't good for you.

 

When I think back to my training days coming up through the ranks, I can't see a dojo like mine surviving in today's litigus world. For those who throw out that traditional ma training dosen't work, or is a waste of time, I have to disagree. Many mma have a core root of some type of ma in their background, but this is a differnt subject matter in itself, so that's all I have to say on it at this time.

[monkeygirl]

um, not really.

 

a traditional school isn't a mcdojo (for your reason) because the art taught is real and recognised to be so.

 

normally, making the art work is up to you and how you train (the school acts as a guide to help you achieve what you want).

 

sport places are not mcdojos because they teach you to do well in what you train for, sport/display/performances.

 

contracts are often linked to insurance purposes.

 

you have to see why and what the contract binds you to (must attend for 6 days a week or else pay 4x the normal listed price unless you pay a waiver of $600 before teaching commences... cannot tell or show or exchange what you are taught... must obey...).

 

it is what is in the contract, not the contract itself taht is the sign.

 

not belonging to an organisation does not mean a thing.

 

in some cases, it is the big organisations that are the route of the money grabbing problem.

 

I think that was kind of his point.

 

To a certain extent, McDojoism is in the eye of the beholder. There are many cases of people overusing the term, and confusing the issues.

 

The term "McDojo" is meant to define a school that is a scam, lead by a con artist. Generally, this means the "sensei" has little to no real training, but sometimes it can be a genuine black belt (in terms of skills, not morals, obviously) who has turned greedy. Typically, a McDojo lies and cheats, often teaching dangerous techniques that they claim will kill anyone (in cases of an inexperienced sensei). There is some controversy as to whether or not a dojo who gives Black Belts to children is a McDojo. However, the major, underlying current is deception. If a school makes promises it can not or simply does not keep, that school is untrustworthy and can be deemed a McDojo.

 

Now, despite what many others may say, just because a school teaches a style or uses a training method that could allegedly never stand up to school/style X's training methods, doesn't mean it's a McDojo. A school that focuses on tournament training, heck a school that does only kata for an hour, is not necessarily a McDojo. Not every dojo has to teach its students the essentials of self-defense or how to take a sidekick. If the dojo has never claimed to be a rough-and-tough school, there is no deception and therefore no McDojoism. It's in cases like these that it comes down to "whatever makes you happy". If you truly want to do nothing but kata for an hour, that's fine. Just as long as you don't become brainwashed to think that you are suddenly a master of Pankration (which to my knowledge, doesn't even have kata) because your dojo tells you so.

 

That would fall under the deception category.

[Bretty101]

The term McDojo is a ridiculous one!!!

 

Am I pointing out the obvious here:

 

The term McDojo is analogous to McDonalds, meaning a franchise, a brand name and system which anyone can buy into.

 

Surely any club which is part of an organisation/system (brand name) is part of a franchise?

 

How this has any reflection on the instructor or quality of the teaching is beyond me?

 

Bretty

 

Wouldn't it be nice to have your own McDonalds:

 

http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/company/asp/ci_frinf.asp

[Iron Arahat]

the only real way to find out is to get in there and try it out..

 

That is a dangerous proposition for some schools especailly if their bottom line is money. Long cotracts, extra training, sparring clubs and so on. Some schools can suck thousands of dollars out of students in just a few months.

 

Beware of the "Buisness school" with Halloween parties, lots of "special training" etc.

[CloudDragon]

I think that every post here has made a valid point or points. I think that most of the people who stamp others with that label usually do so because of jealousy in one respect or another, so they take some point about the other school and proclaim that it is wrong and the school is not a valid dojo. I have one thought about one of the most contested issues: time to black belt.

 

I think that it shouldn't take more than 3 years to attain a black belt. After all, the most accepted definition of the skill level of a black belt is that they are a student who has mastered the basic concepts of their art. If it takes you longer than that to learn the basics of an art, then you are being swindled or not being properly taught. If you do research you will find that before the 1970's and the mass importation of martial arts into the US, (yes I know it started in the 50's & 60's, but it really expanded in the 70's) A black belt was awarded in 1-2 years on average. Example, Chuck Norris got his black belt in about a year, anyone want to tell him his isn't legit? Anyway, if it takes you a long time to earn your black belt I feel that you are being cheated because your instructor or association is milking you for $$$ because they probably won't keep you after your black belt beacuse they have little more to offer. Thank You for your kind attention to my rant.

[White Warlock]

Clouddragon, i couldn't disagree with you more.

I think that it shouldn't take more than 3 years to attain a black belt.

I think it should take you long enough to 'master' the basics, whatever the 'basics' may be. Some systems have more prerequisites than others and sometimes personal life interferes with training, causing you to not be as quick at learning for a period of time. Were my instructor to hand me a belt within 3 years, despite my lack of mastery in the basics... I would question his motives. And, if i had not mastered the basics within 3 years, i would not immediately blame the instructor... that's just b.s. Seriously. I mean, if i've been studying there for 3 years and then decide to blame the instructor because i haven't obtained a black belt... who's the one needing a clue?

Example, Chuck Norris got his black belt in about a year, anyone want to tell him his isn't legit?

I was not aware of this, and if this is true... if he had practiced the martial arts for but a year before obtaining a black belt... "yes"... i would say it wasn't legit... initially. I, however, do question this and would like for you to provide evidence to this claim.

 

special note: Chuck Norris is an exceptional martial artist that won virtually every championship from 1965 to 1970. It is, indeed, possible that he 'legitimately' obtained his first black belt within a year. Unlikely, but possible. However, you did not indicate if this was his 'first' black belt, or even what system it was that he received it in.

Anyway, if it takes you a long time to earn your black belt I feel that you are being cheated because your instructor or association is milking you for $$$ because they probably won't keep you after your black belt beacuse they have little more to offer

If the endgoal of a student is to obtain a black belt, then absolutely... he should go for the school that hands him one as fast as possible.

 

However, if his endgoal is to 'earn' his belt, by actually 'mastering' the basics, i would say, "when he is ready, and no sooner."

 

Unbeknownst to the uninitiated, belt attainment isn't something you should be striving for. Knowledge, both physical and mental, should be your goals. Belt ranks should only serve as an affirmation as to your state of understanding in that particular artform. The fact that it serves as more, is unfortunate.

I think that most of the people who stamp others with that label usually do so because of jealousy in one respect or another, so they take some point about the other school and proclaim that it is wrong and the school is not a valid dojo.

Umm... no. I would say that 'jealousy' is the furthest thing from most people's minds when they refer to another school as a McDojo. In fact, what they more often feel is... disgust.

 

There is a school in Sacramento that is doing very well, financially. Two brothers opened up the school before they even obtained their black belts (they even proudly admit so in a large 'descriptive' display next to their front door... likely serving as a disclosure to protect against lawsuits). Each of them had studied a little over a year and once they got out of high school (or was it college, i can't recall), they started up the school... teaching youngsters. Now they are one of the biggest schools in Sacramento and they make a pretty penny. They have students teaching students, multiple rooms setup like martial arts play pens, and 5 or more classes going on at any one time. They're raking in the cash, and their students are not teaching anything but the absolute basics to a bunch of kids, while the parents watch... not knowing any better. I watched what was being taught. I watched the so-called instructors, uncoordinated kids themselves. I watched... and was disgusted. This, my dear Clouded Dragon... is a McDojo.

 

The nature of some schools to bypass the essence of martial arts, to use it as a means to make a quick buck... to capitalize on an art form, are what most 'seasoned' practitioners have a problem with. The endgoal is truly the definer of whether a school is a McDojo or not. If the endgoal is profit... it's a McDojo. If the endgoal is to spread a martial art system's popularity, that's not a McDojo... even if the art system isn't necessarily any good. However, if the endgoal is to spread a martial art system's popularity so that, eventually you can capitalize on it... that's a McDojo franchise in the works.

 

Now, if the endgoal is to teach a martial art system for the betterment of oneself, others, or the system itself... that's not a McDojo. As to how one can tell the difference between a McDojo and a MA School... it is relatively obvious to a seasoned practitioner. Unfortunately, it is not relatively obvious to most everyone else. In the end, my best recommendations are...

• 1. don't waste time with credentials (many people have legitimate credentials, but unfortunately, many more have Photoshop on their computers and can print out a bunch of bogus ones from 'non-existent' or schools or deceased masters).
   
  2. instead, watch a few classes at different schools (just be courteous and take a seat. If they ask you, tell them the truth... you're watching how he teaches. Good instructors will appreciate your caution).
   
  3. Don't go to just one school... go to many (10 or more). Shop around and after sitting in the classes just watching, if you feel 'connected' to the people... you might be in the right school. But, just in case, choose three schools. Narrow the 10+ schools down to three potentials...

Then, in order to determine what the endgoals of those three are:

• 1. find out what their courses cost (prices do vary, depending on the amount of times classes are offered and the quality of instruction... but too much... is too much),
   
  2. whether they charge for every belt (some good schools do, but i avoid them nonetheless. If I enter a school and they require me to pay for every belt test or advancement, I will stay a white belt. Why? Because i don't need to pay someone to know whether i've 'mastered' the basics, just as i don't need an A+ certification to know whether i can fix a computer. To me, it cheapens the gift of affirmation),
   
  3. whether they charge for every belt test and 'especially' whether they charge for every belt test, regardless of whether you pass or fail (many more sleazier schools let you fail a few times before you pass, so you end up paying two to three times the amount just to get a pat on the back and a different colored belt to wear around your waist 4 hours a week),
   
  4. whether they make any verbal or written guarantees (no school should offer guarantees, as you are the only who can make guarantees to yourself when it comes to the study of martial arts. Steer clear of any schools offering guarantees on obtaining a belt within a set period of time. You are ready when you are ready, no sooner),
   
  5. who your instructors are going to be (you might have watched the class only when the head instructor was there, while he was teaching the top students. You may end up being taught by some snot-nosed kid that can't hit a paper bag... so knowing is critical),
   
  6. if they have short contracts or no contracts (most instructors want you to make some degree of commitment, maybe 3 or 6 months. This is understandable, as they really don't want to waste time teaching someone just enough to get themselves killed. However, i tend to steer clear of those 'requiring' a contract signing of one year or more. If you are unable to commit to a long period of time, and the instructor is not willing to work with you on this, don't bother),
   
  7. warm-ups... check to see if they do warm-ups. This probably the biggest giveaway to a bad school (not necessarily a McDojo). If they don't warm-up for at 'least' 5 minutes, they aren't worth getting hurt over.
   
  8. check out their equipment and whether they are insured (you may be required to sign a contract agreeing with them that they are not responsible if you break your neck... but this is actually only a formality that helps 'decrease' lawsuits. If you were injured due to instructor negligence or faulty equipment, the school is responsible... regardless of what you signed upon joining. If their equipment is in poor shape and/or the school is not insured, don't even think of joining. They obviously aren't thinking about your health or safety),
   
  9. free is not always good. Completely disconnected from the McDojo discussions... but... it's an important thing to know. Sometimes people want to 'use' you as a guinea pig for their half-baked skills, so they 'supposedly' teach you for free. However, in short order you find yourself being slammed around or your legs being popped off and put back on. Free instruction means no commitments... and no insurance, so get to know someone before you agree to work out with them.

From there, you should be able to make a 'reasonably safe' assessment and choose the best out of the three you've chosen.

 

There are many other things to watch out for, of course... but these should be sufficient to help you make the choice for you.