buying new sai

[NYC Kyoshi]

I found this thread searching on Google for custom sai.

I too own Shureido and they are very good quality. However, the moto (center point where the blade and prongs converge) is flat and the balance is too saki (tip)-heavy for my taste.

Actually, my favorite pair of sai are a pair that hang on the wall here at the dojo and no one remembers where they’re from.

They sort of look like the generic cheapie kind: chrome, octagonal, pointed tip and butt. But they have a built up (rounded) moto (to allow your thumb to control the sai when the saki is pointed forward and to keep your thumb away from the hypothetical sword blade,) plus they’re well balanced and well made. Whoever brought them in to the dojo also wrapped the handle with a really nice, thick, braided string, mounted with rubber cement. (Bicycle handlebar tape works well too.)

I’ve looked at the websites for Karate Connection, Murasaki and Kobudo-Kwai in Germany but can’t tell whether the moto are rounded or flat (like Shureido’s are.)

Does anyone know whether the sai from these sites have a rounded (built up) moto and are octagonal, and how their balance is?

I’ve also looked at a lot of other sites like Century, Tiger Claw, AWMA, etc. and they seem all to be the generic, cheapie kind.

Thanks.

[Sauzin]

I'll tell you what, you're the first Kobudo guy I've ever run into that prefers a round moto. I don't mean to be disagreeable, but it seems from my perspective that you're reason for wanting a round moto is a bit odd.

First of all, from a thumb perspective, having the tip of the thumb against the moto is the strongest structure and makes for the best strikes (same reason Aikido/Jujitsu guys use the tip of their thumb to apply preasure for wrist locks/throws). You can't do this very well if the moto is round. The round mound causes the thumb to slip when it is in this position.

Now I've seen some guys who don't use this thumb position. That fine, but if you're using the pad of your thumb it can still slip if you've got a round lump in the middle of you're sai. From my experiance the best way to protect your thumb is to keep it in the correct position. If you're thumb is too high on the moto then it'll get hit. Even if the moto is round.

From what I know of sai manufacturing the only reason you see a round moto is because of the molding process used to make the sai. Traditional sai's are forged not molded. Most sai's with round motos are actually hollow. This is not only not traditional but is potentially dangerous if you're using them for contact. As mentioned prior they also have a tendency to warp.

Lastly I'd like to mention that the idea of the sai being used against a sword is historically incorrect. The sai's prongs are way too wide to work well against a blade. They were designed for use against a bo (stick) or spear, which were much more common then swords in Okinawa. Sai's were carried by the police for a number of years for this purpose.

I hope this information helps some. If it makes any difference, Shureido now offers sais with a more rounded moto that looks more like someone took a prong bar and simply welded it to the shaft. They are extremely unpopular though. They are called "old style sai", though that's a very controversial name.

[Sauzin]

Oh and Murasaki kobudo sai, the moto is flat as well as the weapon connection sai. I have no idea about the German maker but if they are forged sai then chances are they are flat as well.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I have a pair of Weapons Connection sai that I use mainly. As Sauzin says, the moto is flat. My instructor has a pair of Murasaki Kobudo sai, and they are also flat. The Murasaki Kobudo sai are handmade by Kyoshi Jerry Taylor, and he does an excellent job. I may even be thinking about buying a pair of his sai sometime in the future, perhaps. I do like my Weapons Connection sai though.

Shureido did have round moto for a brief period, but that was a quality corner being cut and it was stopped rather quickly...

[Pacificshore]

Just as an update on this (bumped it because it was old and not likely to be seen if I simply edited it), I got the Carbone's sai in from Weapons Connection and the balance is unbelievably superb. I would say even better than Shureido. You have to feel them to know what I mean, but they are great.

Oh, and this is my first post after about a month and a half hiatus or so...

Finally, someone who actually has a custom made pair ....So how is the weight on your pair? Heavy, Light, inbetween? I think I read somewhere that the Agena Sai were heavy weight wise. I'm still in the market for a custom pair myself

Bammm #1500 too

[Shorin Ryuu]

They are quite nice. They do seem a little heavy, and I even got the standard kind, which is lighter than the deluxe. I do like their balance, which feels very "alive" to me. The Murasaki ones, which I have had a chance to handle, may be even quicker to open and close, as their handles are much thinner and they are not as heavy (still solid though). This may actually just be a function of the very thick (relatively speaking) wrapping on the Weapons Connection sai. I might get a thinner wrapping around the handle and see how that changes things. I do recommend the Murasaki ones perhaps a little more than the Weapons Connection (by virtue of its slight speed advantage), although I think both versions are better than Shureido.

[Pacificshore]

Shorin Ryuu,

Thanks for the review on the custom sai. This will make my decision a bit easier

[NYC Kyoshi]

Thank you for your input.

I assure you that the round moto is not a mistake or manufacturing defect, and the entire sai is solid.

We do a lot of bunkai: sai against sai (using dedicated “bunkai” sai for that purpose) so I know that none of our sai are hollow.

I own at least six pair of sai and there are another twenty or so pair of sai on the weapons wall of our dojo which I have also handled at one time or another. About half have a flat moto and half a rounded moto.

Regarding the placement of the thumb, if you accept the analogy of a hill for the round moto, the thumb pushes against the grip’s side of the uphill rise. (Not on the peak of the "hill," as I believe one of you may have inferred.)

In our version of the Tsukenshitahaku kata, we do a lot of clubbing with the blade of the sai and the thumb needs to control the sai by having a “hill” upon which to push.

Also, over the years we’ve used for striking, 1) a railroad tie suspended between concrete construction blocks, and 2) a steel belted car tire on its edge. The flat moto does not allow sufficient control of the sai when struck. The sai vibrates when it’s struck and the flat moto shifts under the thumb, causing the sai to slip out of one’s grip. However, the round moto stays in position during the strike’s vibration, allowing the strike to deliver its force into the target.

Also, thank you for telling me about the other manufacturers of sai. I’ll have to keep looking or take up sai building myself.

[The_tragedy]

cna you show me picture of a Shureido Sai?

[Pacificshore]

cna you show me picture of a Shureido Sai?

http://www.shureidousa.com/kobudo/sai.html