Sasori_Te Posted February 25, 2004 Posted February 25, 2004 Do you believe that the Shuri Te lineage katas that were changed for use in the Shotokan system by Funakoshi were impaired or diminished by these changes (from a self defense stand point)? I know this is a difficult question to answer for most folks since they are on one side of the issue or the other. I am most anxious to hear everyone's thoughts on this. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.
I-Self Posted February 26, 2004 Posted February 26, 2004 If a Shotokan school uses the original forms that Funakoshi Gichin taught as detailed in his first book "KarateJutsu" then "no". Those are variations of the forms he was taught while a student of Itosu and Asato. They preserved a lot of their functionality. The shorter, less dramatic stances are good for fighting and maintaining maneuverability. Those are key trademarks of good Shuri Te: speed and movement. If you attend some full-contact AAU comps you'll see the Shotokan-ka getting the straight forward stuff down, the linear back and forth motion, but because their stances are so deep and wide their lateral movement and body-change are nonexistent. That's more than half your techniques out the window. You can't always rush in head first, or run backwards. That's dumb. Moving at angles and in circles allows you to strike and move. Most folks can't punch or kick effectively while retreating. Kumite in Japan is modeled after the Kendo way of fighting where a lot of forward and backward motion is done, with little emphasis on circular or angular movement. Fencing is also like this. Sport ideas for something that was never intended to be for sport. Funakoshi wanted to make a "kinder and gentler" karate for student practice and conditioning. The dramatic stance changes built young legs up as weightlifting was not common in those days. He didn't want Shotokan to be considered a barbaric brutal art. He wanted something comparable to modern Judo, a true budo vs. bujutsu, a philosophical way to enhance living vs. an art or science for fighting/self preservation. He wanted to limit the fighting lessons and make it fun and enlightening for everyone. He says all this, and lets the reader know over and over that the karate-do he is creating has a different purpose and face than the To-Te/Tode Jutsu he learned growing up on Okinawa. I don't see why anyone has any problem understanding this. I guess folks don't read anymore, they just take their sensei's or organization's word for things. Too bad. In fact after his son and others in the JKA changed things even further, original intent became almost nonexistent. He was so brilliant (Gichin). He preserved the basic principles, without compromising the art which he truly loved. Others did the rest to finish the task he started. I admire him for making karate popular and possibly keeping Okinawan karate around because of Japanese karate's popularity. Genius! Anyway, the Shotokan renderings of the Shuri kata are much different than the Shorin versions. This can be said about Wado and Japanese Shito as well. All you have to do is look at their forms and how they do them. You can see what they are attempting to do, but something is definitely missing. In order to preserve the form you must preserve its essence, otherwise you are practicing a pale imitation of a diluted singular interpretation. Or something like that . For example if you do Naihanchi, not in a Naihanchi ("pigeon toed") stance, but in a shiko dachi or pai sai stance then you're missing the lesson of rising power inherent in Naihanchi, among other things. Whether a kata is Shorei-Te, Tomari-Te or Shuri-Te, keeping the stances and techs true with little deviation is the key to gleaning the lessons. Otherwise you are doing a dance and getting in some shape, but you're just pretending to learn karate fighting. You might as well just spar and evaluate your ability to fight based on that. Which is what most karate-ka/martial artists do. Funakoshi was so slick! Just my 2 centavos... Yes, there is a right and wrong way....There is no "Do" without "Jutsu"!
equaninimus Posted February 26, 2004 Posted February 26, 2004 What he said! In addition, I do see more of "Funakoshi-ha" Shorin in Wado than in modern day JKA Shotokan. There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm!
Sasori_Te Posted February 26, 2004 Author Posted February 26, 2004 Thanks I-Self. I've read "Karate Do Kyohan" and "Karate Do, My Way of Life". I agree with your post. I guess what I'm wondering is, if you were to use the Original Funakoshi kata and applied a decent understanding of how to break down and glean techniques from kata, would you get the same quality, or should I say as wide an array, of tuite and kyusho techniques as the original Shuri Te kata? A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.
Sho-ju Posted February 26, 2004 Posted February 26, 2004 Do you believe that the Shuri Te lineage katas that were changed for use in the Shotokan system by Funakoshi were impaired or diminished by these changes (from a self defense stand point)? I know this is a difficult question to answer for most folks since they are on one side of the issue or the other. I am most anxious to hear everyone's thoughts on this. In some ways yes, the kata have been diminished by Okinawa bunkai standards. But they have also improved in other ways. That is way we included more Okinawa kata in our dojo and have gotten away, far away in many ways from JKA.
equaninimus Posted February 26, 2004 Posted February 26, 2004 There is a group in St. Louis that did that, I recall. They are called the Traditional Karate Reasearch Association, or something like that. Are you affiliated with them? There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm!
Sho-ju Posted February 26, 2004 Posted February 26, 2004 There is a group in St. Louis that did that, I recall. They are called the Traditional Karate Reasearch Association, or something like that. Are you affiliated with them? No I'm not. We run an independent dojo with lose ties to a handful of Okinawan Karate dojos. We maintain a class shotokan syllabus, but make use of Okinawa kata and training. sj
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