seisan

[fireka]

I just don't feel like i'm getting anything out of my kata, there just isnt enough stress on bunkie (sp?) can we talk about seisan's for a while? Or is there a site that has a video or even just a series of pictures with applied seisan? (i.e. seisna performed with people actually coming up and trying to strike the kataka)

[Pacificshore]

I've never personally studied Seisan, but my son is learning it now. It seems somewhat straight forward, but have not looked at the bunkai application. So what is it in particular are you thinking about bunkai wise?

[fireka]

well it's not so much that i don't know the bunkie. I dont have it word for word memorised but your rigth, it's fairly straight forward. However, i'm nto learning anything, I practice this kata day and night since I'm testing soon but I don't feel that in kumite I will aplie any lesson this kata has to teach because I can't see the lesson. I think if I have soem help here with lookign at the bunkie with different eyes maybe i'll learn something.

[equaninimus]

Kata and Kumite are two diferent animals. Kumite is a game. Kata is practice for self defence. I find it very hard to believe that in your short amount of time in Karate you have exhausted the possible oyo for Sesan! The best way to learn what a kata has to offer is to practice the kata. NO one can do that for you.

 

Sesan, particularly the variant practiced by Ishhin Ryu (which is an adaptation of the Kyan version) teaches how to use the hips to move out of teh way of danger. It also teaches trapping a limb that has grabbed yours. In addition, there are strong elements of training in tai-sabaki in the middle portion of the kata.

 

Just practice the kata and let it be your teacher.

[fireka]

Iv'e been practing it for eight months. I'm just not applying it PERIOD. and kumite should not just be a game but a way to practice, with control, technique, speed, taisabuki, a number of toher things. I'm not asking anyoen to do the kata for me i'm asking for discussion, as this is a messahe board. sorry, that must have sounded liek i'm trying to get smart.

 

If I do not know all the bunkie there is no way I can apply it.

[Sauzin]

The Issinryu version of Seisan sounds similar to the version I practice in Okinawan Kenpo, so I'd like to talk about that. Everything from the superb offline then back online stepping with mid-blocks and reverse strikes to the throws done when turning to the ending "U" punch then windmill block are extremely effective. It's hard to see when you're in the "block, punch, kick, step block punch kick" mentality. Think outside the box a bit. In a fight two guys aren’t going to stand a foot apart and punch at each other like in a sparing match. There will be grabbing, elbows, knees, and a lot of hooks. Seisan works with all these factors. Ask yourself, "What are my hands doing while I'm transitioning? What could I be grabbing? What might my opponent be grabbing? What happens if I move my foot here while his foot is there and I turn?" You know play around; there's all kinds of stuff there. For example get into a position before any turn in the kata and have someone grab you. Perform the turn and the technique. See where stuff goes.

[tommarker]

Well, let's start off with a simple question:

 

What do *you* see in Seisan? I'm not looking for anything profound, just looking for your level of understanding of the form.

[fireka]

Sauzin, ill try that.

 

To me, it seems mainly reptitive, as though it wasn't meant so much to be realistic as just drill into you the mentaility behind some of the less practiced techniques. When is the last time you used an x-block? Also thats the reason I think you have to grab the arm and pull three times. I mean, in a fight, why the heck would they all be standing in a line like that? It also works with simple techniques that dont use lots of excess movement, which is a core value of Isshinryu anyway. One thing I wanted to clear up in paticular, that little push up thing I do with my arms right before I half step forward and x-block, whats that for?

[equaninimus]

First, throw away the "kata is a complete fight with multiple opponents" concept. Get rid of it, wad it up and toss it in the incinerator.

 

Each technique is a complete technique in and of itself.

 

You are not facing three people in a line whom you perform kakie uke on. You are practicing the same technique on opposite sides. Possible oyo for this technique include:

 

-release from a two handed lapel grab.

 

-diagonal step to the side, and ridgehand strike to the neck, and head/neck throw.

 

-step past an opponent, bouncing him sideways.

 

-step into an opponent, grasping his arm, armbar/shoulder dislocation.

 

Those are the simplest applications I can think of. the whole "block then punch, turn, then block, then punch" mentality was something the Japanese imposed on Karate in the 1930s, though I often wonder if the Uchinanchu didn't implicitly encourage them to think this way?

[fireka]

good job, keep going