TJS Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 They will wear 10 oz gloves...and yes PVwing chun there are rules...those same rules will apply to his opponet also... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvwingchun Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 You know your right it is an excuse. I am just making them up now before he fights and gets beat. CYA that is what I always say. I am so tired of hearing that the rules apply to both sides I hear that all the time. If you want to train to fight with rules in the ring, or to roll around with your buddies on a mat somewhere, go ahead, but there are no rules in a self defense situation on the street and that is where we train for. That is my Wing Chun. The ring is completely different game and one I believe that is not suited to Wing Chun at least the way I train and teach it. Wing Chun Kuen Alliancehttps://www.wing-chun.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kle1n Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 i totally agree with that pvwingchun. i mean its like a baseball player playing soccer against a soccerplayer with soccer rules. Be everything. Be nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Monkey Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 sorry but that is still a lame excuse. if you have decided to participate in a ring fight then if you don't prepare by finding out what you can or cannot do with gloves/limits then i will say that are ignoring the first rule; make the most of the situation. and no, it isn't like a baseball player playing with soccer rules. the last time i checked, karate guys don't fight with 10oz gloves either. if anything, i say the format of the fight looks like it favours the wing chun guy because it is primarily stand up and clinches are avoided. you can go on about there being no rules in the street but this isn't the street and the guy who enters the ring knows this. i can never understand why people say that wing chun works in real defence but not in a ring fight? i could've sworn wing chun was about rock solid defence, 'superior' technique, simple techinque and above all, total dominating control. if you have to rely on elbows and strikes to eyes, throat, spinal etc etc to win/control a fight then i say you are not in total control. i've said this before. from day one, the wing chun guys learns to punch, usually to the head/face region. why, when suddenly in a ring, you can't win by punches? and like i said before, the gloves might hinder trapping but only in the small circle (i.e small, closed up and tight, trapping or ADVANCED stuff). this still means that the big circle (i.e the basic stuff) is available to you. by saying that gloves and rules hinders you is like saying that basic wing chun doesn't work and that is wrong. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karateka_latino Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Well, i think its a fair fight, from what i read, the oponent of the wing chun guy is a Karateka, not a Kickboxer. Also, the wing chun guy must have done some kind of preparation before the fight, i don't think he doesn't know the rules and i don't think he's not prepared for them. Since they are using kickboxing rules, Don't expect to see a wing chun vs karate fight, its likely to look like a Bad kickboxing match. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanseijas Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 No elbows???!!!! We use elbows all the time in Fut Sau. The patch or crest worn by Isshinryu karateka often raises admiration and curiosity. The patch is based on a day dream Tatsuo Shimabuku had in the fifties while he was creating his karate style. This dream was the missing piece in the puzzle called Isshinryu. The patch is often incorrectly called Mizu Gami, which means 'water goddess'. Originally the Isshinryu emblem was called 'Isshinryu No Megami', which means 'Goddess of Isshinryu'. The goddess is the Goddess of Isshinryu karate and not the goddess of water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvwingchun Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Since they are using kickboxing rules, Don't expect to see a wing chun vs karate fightMy point exactly this is not a Wing Chun fight but a boxing match. When you fight in a ring with boxing rules you are a boxer. Which is essentially what this is. When you enter a ring and fight under their rules you are simply a Wing Chun , karate, etc guy fighting in a boxing match.i can never understand why people say that wing chun works in real defence but not in a ring fight? Because it wasn't designed to fight in the ring it was designed for the battlefield, as were most classical arts, but most Wing Chun people have never felt the need to adapt it to the ring. And I do not know why Wing Chun people feel the need to get in the ring and prove themselves and that Wing Chun works in the ring under all of these different sets of rules. I am sure it could be adapted but I would be willing to bet it would not resemble the Wing Chun I know. But I personally refuse to start stripping down and throwing away my tools. Have you ever tried to bong and lop followed by fak sau with a 10 oz. glove on, doesn't work. Oh and by the way you can't do that anyway. What about tan sau to cheng sau oops open palm can't use that. Maybe I will side step reverse lan sau take to ground. Sorry they disqualify you for that. And if you are talking about not having control, the more advanced techniques you use the more control it takes to execute them properly unfortunately most of them are illegal even if used even in a manner as to simply strike the opponent without being deadly or life threatening. I could go on and on but when all you can do is punch you can longer call it Wing Chun, you may use one or two Wing Chun techniques but you are not doing Wing Chun. Wing Chun Kuen Alliancehttps://www.wing-chun.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Monkey Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 strikes are interchangeable. the main concern is arm extension. if you can do a palm strike, you can do a punch. it wasn't designed for the battle field, it was for 'covert' use in the streets and alleys of china (and also for quick learning and easy 'training') you are going on about specific HAND techniques and forgetting that it doesn't matter what you have on yout hands the arm positions are still going to be strong. you are still going to be able to use your elbows to guide pressure. you are still going to able to receive on your bridge. you are still going to be able to use ALL of the basic positions and strengths. and the examples you mention are 'one and a half beat' techniques. what about the other BASIC mixes of hands? doesn't tan sau chung chui work? doesn't pak sau chung chui work? you can even do receive+press with gan sau (the proper one), turn/press to kwun sau before raising the low bong to bui/lap. i always hear people say that if you have gloves on, you can't do wing chun. i say that is crap. i'll admit that things have to be done differently but wing chun is above all, a set of ideas. ideas aren't hindered by gloves. the most important aspects; straight line, centre+mother line, interruptability, triangles, elbow strength, are not in any way hampered by gloves. what you lose is actually a very small and very specific amount of techniques. many of these things are from biu gee theory anyway. wing chun is supposed to work at all levels. the argument that without these things wing chun doesn't work is saying that basic wing chun doesn't work. this is what i disagree with. the whole point is that is even with sil lim tau you should be able to handle a fight. the quick and simple street fight move is pak sau (maybe add a secondary control, 'tan' sau maybe) chung chui then push in and strike as neccessary. doesn't this work? post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvwingchun Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 the most important aspects; straight line, centre+mother line, interruptability, triangles, elbow strength, are not in any way hampered by gloves. I agree with this but when you confine yourself to one range, the punching range, you are elimniating all other tools in all other ranges. You are eliminating the use of HAND techniques that are used and dictated by range and essentially using boxing techniques which is the punching range. If I step into elbow range I don't back up to punching range, this is against the principles as I train them, I throw an elbow. Wing Chun is about principles (ideas as I believe you are calling them) but there is still a certain set of techniques that go along with those principles and those two compliment each other. The bottom line is I believe I lose alot and you believe you lose only a little from Wing Chun by changing it to put it in the ring, and never shall we meet in our agreement. I train and teach my Wing chun for a very specific purpose and refuse to adapt it to the rules of the ring. If you or anyone else can and or feel the need to do it please do.it wasn't designed for the battle field, it was for 'covert' use in the streets and alleys of china This is obviously a history difference and I don't even want to go there. We could be here for years discussing this. Wing Chun Kuen Alliancehttps://www.wing-chun.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Monkey Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 y'know, part of this is probably cos i'm a small guy. for me, in order to use any technique, i have to get in damn close.... also, i have said before (elsewhere), different people train differently. i always try to enter with technique as opposed to get in, then execute. if i've entered elbow range, then you're probably already forced to go backwards. (probably misreading you here anyway) as for the history, yeah. that is a whole big mess. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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