Bowing practices

[Dijita]

I'm firmly against bowing in martial arts practiced outside of Asia, and really of the inclusion of a culture foreign to the practitioner in official training.

 

I'm not racist, I just think it's a little dishonest to use another culture in this manner.

 

Take, for example, a painter. Though he/she may paint in a fashion/with the same tools as were developed in a foreign land, they usually don't feel it necessary to act with that cultural mindset during the painting process.

 

To be ignorant of the culture which birthed your art is, well, ignorant. But to feel compelled to live through this culture during training is pointless.

 

What the heck? Bowing is showing a sign of respect... what martial arts is all about.

 

Anyways, when I bow I look into the persons eyes. However, I think the proper way as far as Mas Oyama had intended:

 

"The correct manner of bowing when practicing with another person is to tip the body slightly forward..., and fixing your eyes on his chest, and trying to visualize his entire anatomy at the same time."

 

-quoted from Mas Oyama's Karate by Bobby Lowe.

[White Warlock]

Actually, Vash's comment is acceptable, except if you 'do' understand the culture. I studied sufficiently to understand the 'meaning' behind the action, as opposed to just the action, and i think it is important for traditional schools to instruct their students in that 'meaning.' But, to not include it altogether, is ridiculous.

 

If a Japanese businessman visits the U.S., it is courteous for a U.S. businessman to bow and then to shake hands. The respect and formality applied in one culture or another is not restricted to regional boundaries, especially not in this day and age, and i find it shortsighted to restrict cordiality based on such. Ignorance i can understand, but if you know better and decide not to act in such a fashion, then that's just disrespectful.

[Dijita]

Perhaps I misunderstood his/her statement then.

[White Warlock]

No, i think you understood his post. I think he overgeneralized, pretty much stating that if you're not from Japan, then you shouldn't include bowing in your instruction of the art. I think that's shortsighted, because it's pretty much saying that if you were born and raised somewhere, that's all there is to you. Personally, i was born and raised in the U.S., although my parents are from Argentina. As well, i spent a decent amount of personal time studying Japanese & Chinese history and culture. I've also studied a decent amount on other cultures. Does it mean because i was born and raised in the U.S., i am not allowed to adopt the actions or cultures of another country?

 

Seriously.... should i stop eating hotdogs & hamburgers (Germany), spagetti & pizza (Italy)? Should i stop saluting my fencing partner prior to a bout? For that matter, shouldn't we just dispense with the English Queensbury rules, because in the U.S. we just sucker punch each other?

 

While these may be silly examples, they are nonetheless similar. Bowing exists as a means to ensure respect is maintained in the dojo. It is also a means to ensure people don't 'sucker punch' at the onset of a match. If you don't understand the reason why bows exist, and you are an instructor, then yes... by all means, do not include it. But, any instructor worth their salt, especially a traditionalist, knows full well both the meaning behind the bow, and the culture associated with its birth.

 

So... no, i don't think you misunderstood him.

[SevenStar]

What my buddy vash is saying (and yes, he understands the meaning behind it) is that cultural practices in general are not necessary. And to an extent, I agree with him. Several people struggle with technique names, for example. Why say "o soto makikomi" or "sasae tsuri komi ashi" when I can more easily say "major ourter winding" or "lifting, propping, pulling ankle"? the latter is easier to understand, and takes away an aspect of of focus - the time that I spend learning those names is time I can spend training.

 

ditjita - a bow is a sign of respect, but so is a handshake. While we are shaking, I never take my eyes off of you, and since we have established contact, if you make any sudden movement to hit me, I will feel your movement and can respond accordingly.

[SevenStar]

while sparring we look in the eyes

 

I wouldn't make a habit of that...

[White Warlock]

Several people struggle with technique names, for example. Why say "o soto makikomi" or "sasae tsuri komi ashi" when I can more easily say "major ourter winding" or "lifting, propping, pulling ankle"? the latter is easier to understand, and takes away an aspect of of focus - the time that I spend learning those names is time I can spend training.

 

No argument there, and i stated similar in my intro.

 

However, that is not what Vash stated. He referred to the practice of 'bowing' and that of including a foreign 'culture.' He mentioned nothing of a foreign language being imposed as a prerequisite to advancement.

 

But, in the end... i will agree that such formalities, merely for inclusion of cultures foreign to the 'majority' of the students, is unnecessary fluff and merely serves as yet one more obstacle in the learning process of how to beat the crap out of people.

[wado_lee]

yes we bow on and off mat and also in oand out of dojo

[White Warlock]

*swoosh*

[SevenStar]

Several people struggle with technique names, for example. Why say "o soto makikomi" or "sasae tsuri komi ashi" when I can more easily say "major ourter winding" or "lifting, propping, pulling ankle"? the latter is easier to understand, and takes away an aspect of of focus - the time that I spend learning those names is time I can spend training.

 

No argument there, and i stated similar in my intro.

 

However, that is not what Vash stated. He referred to the practice of 'bowing' and that of including a foreign 'culture.' He mentioned nothing of a foreign language being imposed as a prerequisite to advancement.

 

I know, but I know vash, and know he has an issue with it.

 

But, in the end... i will agree that such formalities, merely for inclusion of cultures foreign to the 'majority' of the students, is unnecessary fluff and merely serves as yet one more obstacle in the learning process of how to beat the crap out of people.

 

In the eyes of some, yes. Culture is not a prerequisite for learning martial arts. Unless it's an art like judo, where the art is based around that aspect of culture.