Whats the Diffrence between TSD and TKD?

[I-Self]

TSD has many of the same form names (in Korean) for their poomse ("kata") as Shorin Ryu, Wado Ryu, Shito ryu and Shotokan. Depending upon the school, there are a lot TSD McDojos, TSD takes more of the traditional approach. 7* already mentioned Chuck Norris, whose TSD club use to clean up at full-contact and traditional karate tourneys. They were know for their kicks, but they were also good with their hands. Most TKD I've seen really neglects the use of hands in sparring and relies heavily on kicking.

 

It is Korean Karate, whereas TKD nowadays is usually for TKD competition. TSD reminds me of Matsubayashi Ryu with deeper stances and more high kicks. It can be good and (as "Gracie In Action" demonstrated) not so hot. There are big differences in the ideology of each style. We have no TKD people under my sesnei's umbrella org., but we do have a few TSD schools (and about 7 other Japanese and Okinawan karate ryuha- even Kyokushinkai) who train to learn the "essence" that has been forgotten by most Japanese and Korean Karate.

 

If those are your choices for schools I'd say check out TSD, unless it is a TKD school headed by Henry Choi.

[jeffrogers]

No I am not going for those schools just curious of the diffrence. I don't know to much about TSD I watched a couple classes in passing by a dojang one time. Outward apperace looked the same as the TKD training I have seen before.

 

So I thought I would ask. Thank you so much for the information.

 

-Jeff

[TangSooGuy]

In terms of speaking in generalizations, a lot of what has been said is right on the money.

 

However, the truth of the matter is thattoday there is so much variation within the two styles and how they are taught that it is almost pointless to compare them.

 

You could run into two schools, one TKD and one TSD, that essentially teach the same thing, then pull in another TKD school that is completely different, and a fourth TSD school that is still different.

 

I think the main thing about TSD as I study it is a willingness to embrace past traditions, even when it means accepting Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan origins, and incorporating them into a Korean system. A lot of TSD doesnt do this, but a lot of it does, too.

 

In my experience, there is generally more emphasis on hand techniques and grappling in TSD as well, but again, this is not alwys the case, and many TKD schools will have these components incorporated into their curriculum as well.

 

Thee truth of the matter is that I believe, fundamentally, all arts are the same when taken to their highest level. It's the path to getting there that varies.

[jeffrogers]

thanks Tangsooguy

[RF_Brown]

From http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3869&highlight=

Actually Tang Soo Do means the same thing in Korean as what Karate-Do originally meant in Japanese, that is the "Way of the Chinese Hand," Tang referring of course to the Tang dynasty in China. Most all the early Kwans or schools in Korea at around the time of WWII called their art this name. When the Japanese masters due to nationalistic interest before WWII changed the way "Kara" was written to mean "empty" some of the Kwans in Korea began using the name Kong Soo Do to reflect this change. During the Japanese occupation of Korea before WWII, Korean martial arts were forbidden to the Korean populace, but not Japanese arts. At this time Japanese Karate was still basically Shuri-Te from Okinawa, as it had yet evolved into what is now known as Shotokan.

 

When the KTA was formed in Korea, merging all the kwans together into one organization, Grandmaster Hwang Kee refused participation, and did not adopt the name Tae Kwon Do for his school, the Moo Duk Kwan, and continued to use the name Tang Soo Do, and therefore also did not adopt the new pattern set developed by Gen. Choi, the Chang Hon Pattern Set, but rather Koreanized the Shuri-Te forms. For instance in Tang Soo Do, the Pyung Ahn hyungs are the same as the Pinan in Shuri-Te, etc... Many magazine articles in Black Belt and Tae Kwon Do Times have been written on this subject and it cannot be disputed.

 

Many of the Moo Duk Kwan instructors did go with the KTA however so that we had both Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. What is even more confusing is that many of the Tang Soo Do masters in the last couple of decades have broken with Grandmaster Hwang Kee, forming their own organizations using the name Tang Soo Do, such as the World Tang Soo Do Federation, the International Tang Soo Do Federation, etc...

 

As a result the Moo Duk Kwan has now adopted the name Soo Bahk Do to describe the art they practice, claiming that it is the name of an ancient Korean martial art that Hwang Kee supposedly learned at some point and mixed it with Northern style Kung Fu. However despite that claim, Tang Soo Do is nothing more than Koreanized Shuri-Te. Northern Kung Fu may well have influenced Hwang Kee however as that may have been the basis for some of the high kicks that found their way into the Korean martial arts. Northern Kung Fu features many jumps and high kicks. In additon Tang Soo Do as practiced by the Moo Duk Kwan is a little more fluid than many of its Tae Kwon Do cousins, and that may indicate some Kung Fu influence as well. It is interesting to note though that Hwang Kee was a student for a short while at the Chung Do Kwan before starting his own Moo Duk Kwan. Chuck Norris studied at the Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do) in Korea when he was in the service, earning his first black belt there.

 

Actually I kind of like Tang Soo Do, and if I was 20 years younger and a good Tang Soo Do school was in my area, I might well choose it as the martial art of choice, but I do not for one minute buy the propaganda that it is a native Korean martial art. Just look at the forms, they are quite clearly Okinawan Shuri-Te forms.

[RF_Brown]

Thee truth of the matter is that I believe, fundamentally, all arts are the same when taken to their highest level. It's the path to getting there that varies.

 

Well said!!

[benkendrick]

From http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3869&highlight=

Actually Tang Soo Do means the same thing in Korean as what Karate-Do originally meant in Japanese, that is the "Way of the Chinese Hand," Tang referring of course to the Tang dynasty in China. Most all the early Kwans or schools in Korea at around the time of WWII called their art this name. When the Japanese masters due to nationalistic interest before WWII changed the way "Kara" was written to mean "empty" some of the Kwans in Korea began using the name Kong Soo Do to reflect this change. During the Japanese occupation of Korea before WWII, Korean martial arts were forbidden to the Korean populace, but not Japanese arts. At this time Japanese Karate was still basically Shuri-Te from Okinawa, as it had yet evolved into what is now known as Shotokan.

 

When the KTA was formed in Korea, merging all the kwans together into one organization, Grandmaster Hwang Kee refused participation, and did not adopt the name Tae Kwon Do for his school, the Moo Duk Kwan, and continued to use the name Tang Soo Do, and therefore also did not adopt the new pattern set developed by Gen. Choi, the Chang Hon Pattern Set, but rather Koreanized the Shuri-Te forms. For instance in Tang Soo Do, the Pyung Ahn hyungs are the same as the Pinan in Shuri-Te, etc... Many magazine articles in Black Belt and Tae Kwon Do Times have been written on this subject and it cannot be disputed.

 

Many of the Moo Duk Kwan instructors did go with the KTA however so that we had both Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. What is even more confusing is that many of the Tang Soo Do masters in the last couple of decades have broken with Grandmaster Hwang Kee, forming their own organizations using the name Tang Soo Do, such as the World Tang Soo Do Federation, the International Tang Soo Do Federation, etc...

 

As a result the Moo Duk Kwan has now adopted the name Soo Bahk Do to describe the art they practice, claiming that it is the name of an ancient Korean martial art that Hwang Kee supposedly learned at some point and mixed it with Northern style Kung Fu. However despite that claim, Tang Soo Do is nothing more than Koreanized Shuri-Te. Northern Kung Fu may well have influenced Hwang Kee however as that may have been the basis for some of the high kicks that found their way into the Korean martial arts. Northern Kung Fu features many jumps and high kicks. In additon Tang Soo Do as practiced by the Moo Duk Kwan is a little more fluid than many of its Tae Kwon Do cousins, and that may indicate some Kung Fu influence as well. It is interesting to note though that Hwang Kee was a student for a short while at the Chung Do Kwan before starting his own Moo Duk Kwan. Chuck Norris studied at the Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do) in Korea when he was in the service, earning his first black belt there.

 

Actually I kind of like Tang Soo Do, and if I was 20 years younger and a good Tang Soo Do school was in my area, I might well choose it as the martial art of choice, but I do not for one minute buy the propaganda that it is a native Korean martial art. Just look at the forms, they are quite clearly Okinawan Shuri-Te forms.

 

Having studied both TSD (with both the Moo Duk Kwan and United TSD Federations) and TKD (Mostly Sohng Ahm Style (ATA) with some WTF & ITF exposure) I can say you hit the nail on the head...

 

For the most part you can more readlily see the Okinawan influence in MDK TSD than in any of the other styles mentioned. However, GM Hwang Kee has introduced two sets of his own forms. The Chil Sung & Uk Ro series. To me the Chil Sung forms, though still very "Okinawan" have a slightly Chinese feel to them. I don't know much about the Uk Ro (sp?) hyungs as they were just coming out (i.e. being introduced) when I left the MDK.

 

But as you said the bread and butter forms of MDK TSD are Okinawan:

 

Pyong Ahn 1 thru 5 = Pinan 1 thru 5

 

Passai = Bassai

 

Nai Hanchi 1 thru 3 = Nai Hanchi 1 thru 3

 

Chinto = Chinto

 

Kong San Kun = Kusanku

 

A quick funny story - I came to the MDK after studying Okinawan karate for about 6 years. One day when I was warming up with Seisan before class, I was approached by a senior dan in the school and asked "where i learned that form". When I told him I learned it as green belt I was asked (politely) not to do it in this dojang since that was a very senior form that they hadn't learned yet.

[nyiaca]

I practice soo bahk do (tang soo do) and all of our moves and power come from the hips. I don't know if that is true for TKD also, because we have a few black belts in TKD who practice at our studio, and their kicks are different--they don't use their hips. They are very snappy. Also, when they spar, they never use their hands--well, they start out using their hands but after a few seconds they forget them and just drop them to their sides. In sparring during soo bahk do, we punch just as much as we kick.

[benkendrick]

I practice soo bahk do (tang soo do) and all of our moves and power come from the hips. I don't know if that is true for TKD also, because we have a few black belts in TKD who practice at our studio, and their kicks are different--they don't use their hips. They are very snappy. Also, when they spar, they never use their hands--well, they start out using their hands but after a few seconds they forget them and just drop them to their sides. In sparring during soo bahk do, we punch just as much as we kick.

 

It all depends on the TKD style (whether they use the hips or not). MOst say they do but few really emphasize it like Soo Bahk Do.

 

BTW - Which school do you go to in New York. I met some pretty cool folks from a New York school (it was in Oswego I think) at Soo Bahk Do National's in Monticello many years ago. Also I'm pretty sure my old TSD Teacher trained with Master Shimerhorn (Sp?) for a while.

[nyiaca]

I study at Master Kwan's studio in Manhasset (Long Island). He also has a studio in upstate NY. I've only been at it for almost two years so I don't know about Monticello.

 

Plus, we don't do any grappling at our studio (soo bahk do). Maybe when you're more senior, you learn it, but not as far as I know.