shotochem Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Try hitting a bag or Makiwara even better. You hit and go through and the punch isn't pulled back after you made some pentration contract you will feel the viberation shock go back into your body meaning you are taking some of the energy and shock your self. You pull back and it stays there at the makiwara board. Which has more effect. -Jeff Jeff, keep in mind the makiwara will recoil because it is lodged in the ground, while a human body while being hit will give more easily. (I call this POSITIVE FEEDBACK ) This IMO is why I believe the follow through to be more effective. THe body is a softer less rigid material and will not send out a recoil with anywhere near as much as a solid oject. Pain is only temporary, the memory of that pain lasts a lifetime.
blitzcraig Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 true true #1"The road to tae kwan leep is an endless road leading into the herizon, you must fully understand its ways". #2"but i wanna wax the walls with people now" #1"come ed gruberman, your first lesson is here.....boot to the head" #2"ouch, you kicked me in the head", #1"you learn quickly ed gruberman"
Sasori_Te Posted February 6, 2004 Posted February 6, 2004 I disagree Shotochem. Unless you catch someone totally unaware, hitting them will be similar to hitting a water core bag or a standard heavy bag. That's not much give in my book. You also talk about the body as awhole as a softer less rigid material. Like I said before, only if the person is caught totally inawares. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.
shotochem Posted February 6, 2004 Posted February 6, 2004 A body is also in motion and not stationary. Due to it being in motion IMO it would dissapate much of the effect you described. A person will give or move defesivly while being hit. I did a small test. I had a partner hit me both ways and it hurt more with the follow through. Not very scientific but hey I tried. Pain is only temporary, the memory of that pain lasts a lifetime.
JerryLove Posted February 6, 2004 Posted February 6, 2004 As I wrote earlier, punching through an object and leaving the punch or kick in place re-absorbs more of the kinetic energy that was delivered to the target initially than if you quickly withdraw the strike. Depents entirely on the type of hit, the quality of the hit, and the relative positions. If you are talking about a Xingyi hit, for example, the power will be dropped back into the ground; Systema, on the other hand, avoides it because it uses dead weight and lets the recoil travel out the elbow instead of back to the body. In fact, I would argue tha it's not the act of withdrawing that makes any difference, rather it's the inherent changes yo uwill make in how you deliver the hit based on your intent to "bounce"... It's essentially a mental shortcut for you to change your style of power.Try hitting a bag or Makiwara even better. You hit and go through and the punch isn't pulled back after you made some pentration contract you will feel the viberation shock go back into your body meaning you are taking some of the energy and shock your self. I don't agree that your data properly formes a theory. You could achieve the same result (no feedback) by hitting the board more lightly, or not trying to penitrate, or simply not swinging at all.I disagree Shotochem. Unless you catch someone totally unaware, hitting them will be similar to hitting a water core bag or a standard heavy bag. That's not much give in my book. Not in my experience. I love hitting people but dislike hitting bags. At least fist-to flesh... are you perhaps using gloves/padding?I did a small test. I had a partner hit me both ways and it hurt more with the follow through. Not very scientific but hey I tried. I've done that many times with many different types of strikes. Other than some of the very esoteric energy hits, the most debilitating I've felt were rooting while dropping weight... though I'm afraid to take even a light Xingyi strike without quite a bit of kick-bag in front of me (as I've felt a good one through two of them and don't want to repeat that). https://www.clearsilat.com
blitzcraig Posted February 6, 2004 Posted February 6, 2004 your a brave one shotochem #1"The road to tae kwan leep is an endless road leading into the herizon, you must fully understand its ways". #2"but i wanna wax the walls with people now" #1"come ed gruberman, your first lesson is here.....boot to the head" #2"ouch, you kicked me in the head", #1"you learn quickly ed gruberman"
Sasori_Te Posted February 6, 2004 Posted February 6, 2004 JerryLove. I'm not trying to form a scientific theory. Rather I use the laws of motion and some basic physics regarding the transfer of force to explain what happens when you hit a human body in two different fashions. I don't use bag gloves or hand wraps as I am unlikely to have either on the street. Alos, no matter how lightly you hit an object you will have return force. Remember, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Also, hitting lighter may fool you into thinking there is no recoil because it is at a level that is undetectable to you. I agree as far as the internal styles that root in order to strike. You put more mass behind the strike and therefore more force is transferred to the target. Since this thread didn't mention any strikes using chi I didn't address that. Shotochem, I will agree that a moving target can change the effect that I'm describing. Again a moving target was not discussed before. There are a number of factors that will affect which strike you should choose. I believe that I already said that both of these types of striking techniques have their place. Also, in the same vein a moving target, especially an inexperienced opponent will enhance the effect I described by moving in to the strike. Just some things to think about. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.
Treebranch Posted February 6, 2004 Posted February 6, 2004 Follow through is very important and essential for powerful strikes. Follow through also displaces your opponent more and you can take advantage of that. The bounce punch is good for causes reactions in order for a good finishing hit, which is a follow through punch. The best example someone gave here was the Jab and Right cross analogy. Jab hurt, but rarely finish the fight. The both have their purposes, but one is clearly has more power behind it than the other. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
Sasori_Te Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 What some of you guys seem to be saying is that the amount of force delivered in a strike is directly related to the amount of follow through with the strike. This is nonsense. The amount of force delivered is determined by how much body mass you can put behind the strike and how much that mass is accelerated on the way to the target whether you follow through or not. Granted, and I never said otherwise, you need to have penetration of the target by using a point approximately six inches beyond the contact point as an aiming point. Still this has nothing to do with whether or not you follow through the strike or not. I'm wondering whether or not we might be confusing follow through with penetration. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.
Treebranch Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 No we are not confusing penetration with follow through. We understand how to strike I hope. We saying are that if you bounce the hit the force is cut short. It will still be a good hit, but the effects of a strike that has follow through is much more damaging to your opponent. One the opponent get's hit two the follow through effects his balance and therefore your next strike won't be anticipated. I can't stress how important taking you opponents balance is. I you can control their balance you have them. Of course every situation is unique, but generally speaking that's what happens. In our MA will have both strikes with different purposes. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
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