Kenpo application for grappling peformed by Larry Tatum.

[jeffrogers]

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week22/TipOfTheWeekMedW22.html

 

I thought it was interesting and it is good he try to adapt his stand up technique for use on the ground. but did a diservice but least not explain it was for that certain attack. In kenpo I know they do technique for certain punches, straight punch, a hook, ect. But they are still a punch. For that technique to work effectively the peron needs to be mounted in the same with with the high weight distribution. If he dropped his base lower or if it was a BJJ'er or some other grappler who is more adept at use of the mount the techique would be ineffective.

 

I got to say one thing he is pretty fast with his hands though.

 

-Jeff

[delta1]

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week22/TipOfTheWeekMedW22.html

 

... For that technique to work effectively the peron needs to be mounted in the same with with the high weight distribution. If he dropped his base lower or if it was a BJJ'er or some other grappler who is more adept at use of the mount the techique would be ineffective.

 

That is just a tip on transfering skills. It was originally done with the attacker sitting on Mr Tatum, and it was more effective that way. In fact, it about put him on his nose. It also was harder to see what was going on. Don't read too much into it- it was not meant to say you don't need ground skills against a grappler, but for the average street situation you don't need to just give up either if you find yourself mounted. Some skills transfer. But good luck if you find yourself there with a good grappler on top.

[jeffrogers]

I know it was a tip about tranfering skills. But he should have least talked about the attack.

 

For example if your doing inward defense with the right side of your body. Your not going to have the attacker do a left hook punch to your head. Technique isn't designed for that. Same with the that type of mount.

 

Like I said lts good he is trying to answer there questions and say there art can transfer over for ground use. but the practicality of it leaves a bit to be desigred for. -Jeff

[delta1]

Like I said lts good he is trying to answer there questions and say there art can transfer over for ground use. but the practicality of it leaves a bit to be desigred for. -Jeff

 

True, this is not a practical attack, with him kneeling over you. But remember a couple of things. First, this is just a tip to get stand up artists thinking about the ground and some applications. It is in what we'd call the 'Ideal Phase', an easily defended attack scenario where you practice and learn the skills. American Kenpo then moves to progressively harder versions of the same attack, i.e. he's sitting with his weight on you, punching from closer in and with more commitment. It is also important for the dummy to get an idea what is comeing and how to handle it.

 

Here's a statement from the guy who dummied for Mr. Tatum (taken from a Kenpo discussion):

 

"When we had practiced it before the taping I was indeed seated on his chest and with my knees on the mat. I nearly injured my self when I committed to the right punch and had his right knee in conjunction with his parry throw me nearly 15 feet. Let me tell you that even with me on his abdomen and actually trying to strike his face I was thrown. He was borrowing the force of my committed strike and momentum to toss me off him like a rag doll. We switched it up a bit so that it was safer for me to dummy."

 

Even in the 'more realistic' position the dummies heels weren't hooked, and the arms did extend. His seat was apparently not as secure as it could have been (note the terms 'abdomen' and 'chest' were used interchangeably). Not how a grappler would do it, true. But this is not a grappling seminar, just a <1 min. tip on a possible defense to a common street attack. Like I said, if a trained grappler gets you there, you are in trouble. But the average street punk might break his seat to try to get more power in his punch, he might also overextend his arm when he strikes, or do any number of things that give you an opening. This example was just to get you thinking what you might do to defend from the ground. For example, the grapplers say 'an extended arm is a broken arm.' Could some of your elbow breaks work if you are mounted and he extends a grab or strike?

 

The grapplers have better escapes for this situation. Even a basic familiarization with shrimping could help to destabilize his seat. But unless someone wants to study grappling (which is not a bad idea to suppliment training), looking for ways to turn the standup game on it's side can give you a chance against the untrained.

 

As a BJJer, I'd wager you'd agree that the wrong time to think about this for the first time is when the punches start to rain down on your head. And I've been mounted and pounded by grapplers. I doubt I could pull this off with them (certainly didn't then ). But I have used 'stand up' techniques against them on the ground, with varrying degrees of success. Grapplers do tend to change your perspective, I gotta give you that!

[kotegashiNeo]

The only problem as I see it is that a grappler isn't going to just sit up and through punches. They don't have to, they have submissions and if mr tatum tried that on me from that position I roll him right into an armbar. Standing up however I will say this he is very quick but should leave ground work to grapplers.

[jeffrogers]

Thanks for the info Delta1. Again I undedrstand it was a tip for the idea for the student to think how to use there stand up technique on the ground. But we both seem to agree that some one with a decent mount that technique would be hardpressed to work very well.

 

-Jeff

[kempocos]

nobody mounts that way, both shins need to be on the ground. That technique would not work if the mount was coerrect.

[ninjanurse]

I think the idea here is to demonstrate possible applications not show actual situations you may encounter. If you are aware that a technique can be applied you may be able to do so when the moment is right, i.e. during the mount before your opponent has the opportunity to settle on you and is off balance.

 

[jeffrogers]

ninjanurse nice of you to jump in. The more the merrier.

 

"I think the idea here is to demonstrate possible applications not show actual situations you may encounter. If you are aware that a technique can be applied you may be able to do so when the moment is right, i.e. during the mount before your opponent has the opportunity to settle on you and is off balance. "

 

You have a point but the person if a grappler settles into the postion first before doing hard comitted hits. Most of the time. Take a look again at Larry Tatums technique it is based off the momentum of his opponent commiting to the attack. So the problem is he has to commit to the attacker before he stablizes the position. If he doesn't do that and works the postion first then dedicates the attack the opponent using that technique is going to have a hard time getting him off him. So the person actually has to have that high mount were the weight if off the attacker for that to work effectively. Once a base is established the tehcnique is ineffective.

 

-Jeff

[Drunken Monkey]

but didn't he just try to show ONE WAY of how to apply their stand up 'rules' on the floor?

 

why are you (seemingly) trying to discredit what he is doing? afterall, you are questioning the things he is doing but he isn't here to give you an answer....