Is JUDO going to be the new MMA fad now?

[Sasori_Te]

As judo was designed to be a sport, it was designed to work against other judo players. This implies by definition that the other player will be wearing a gi. I've never seen a "traditional judo class that didn't make extensive use of the gi. IMO fo ran art to be effective it shouldn't have to depend on "aids" to make it work. Before it starts, I know that all judo throws do not depend on the gi but a large portion of them do. Wait a minute, so do a lot of traditional jiu jitsu styles ..... Hmmmmm. Forget I said anything. I will agree that BJJ is better at naked techniques than any other art that I can think of.

[Beer-monster]

Not sure about most other TJJ styles Satori, but in the school I practise there are very few throws that require a grip on the clothes (though it some may as a matter of pure preference).

 

Traditional Jiu-jitsu favours the use of control and wrapping of the extremeties mostly the arms and head, as this makes it easier to break the balance and is harder to resist (so you dont get so much pulling and pushing as in Judo).

 

For example the basic hip throw O-goshi is performed with your arms wrapped around the opponents at just above the elbow (usually as an underhook which brings you close where control is optimum) and the other arm slip under the arm pit and usually the arm is simple pressed against the back pointing upwards as it draws them over your hip.

 

This allows you to throws people no matter what they are wearing, however it is much harder to pull off with out alot of practise and sparring ,for MMA fights as to us most throws are practised defensively, most of us are happy as such but the subject is MMA so I should mention that. It is much harder to wrap the arms of a trained puncher without developing some timing, unless done from the clinch, but then you have limited room (good for Uke goshi or Uchi mata but not so for some others).

 

Its even harder to achieve aiki throws which require leading control on a trained person (shame really as I love those throws).

 

So the TJJ fighter is at some disadvantage, but I put that down towards the training rather than the techniques which most of which are functional (may need some slight revisions). However maybe one day a TJJ guy will do the training and sparring required and do well in Pride and the UFC, but then maybe not as traditional martial artist are not that type (usually)

[SevenStar]

 

For example the basic hip throw O-goshi is performed with your arms wrapped around the opponents at just above the elbow (usually as an underhook which brings you close where control is optimum) and the other arm slip under the arm pit and usually the arm is simple pressed against the back pointing upwards as it draws them over your hip.

 

I don't care for o goshi, but when I use it, this is also the way that I do it.

 

This allows you to throws people no matter what they are wearing, however it is much harder to pull off with out alot of practise and sparring ,for MMA fights as to us most throws are practised defensively,

 

With a competition art like judo, there is alot of offensive throwing. Even sacrifice throws like tani otoshi can be used ofensively.

 

It is much harder to wrap the arms of a trained puncher without developing some timing, unless done from the clinch, but then you have limited room (good for Uke goshi or Uchi mata but not so for some others).

 

which is part of why I say you won't see alot of tjj in mma any time soon.

 

However maybe one day a TJJ guy will do the training and sparring required and do well in Pride and the UFC, but then maybe not as traditional martial artist are not that type (usually)

 

I guess that depends on your definition of traditional. Even though judo and muay thai are used in sport combat, they are both old and traditional, IMO.

[SevenStar]

As judo was designed to be a sport, it was designed to work against other judo players.

 

It's not designed merely to work against other judo players. And, it wasn't designed only as a sport. It was designed to be a way of life - the commencement of the meiji era put an end to the samurai, and swords had become illegal. Judo was the best way to keep the budo alive and to keep people in shape mentally and physically, enabling them to benefit society in some fashion. Had it been only designed to work against other judo players, they would not have massacred the tjj guys and it would not have later been taught in the military...

 

This implies by definition that the other player will be wearing a gi. I've never seen a "traditional judo class that didn't make extensive use of the gi. IMO fo ran art to be effective it shouldn't have to depend on "aids" to make it work. Before it starts, I know that all judo throws do not depend on the gi but a large portion of them do.

 

Point taken. Most people wear clothes in public though - that means you have something to grab onto. A shirt or jacket will not last through months of randori, but it will last for a few seconds in a confrontation.

[Beer-monster]

The original form of Kodokan judo was very close to TJJ (as was karate orginally), but modern ideals of fitness and competition made it into the sport it is today.

 

Whether Judo and MT are traditional. Well Judo is not really that old less than 100 years. Muay Thai however has a rich history.

 

However how many MT fighters outside of Thailand give the history its due respect and adhere to its traditions (its rare that you see a Wai Kru or that head band thingy I never remember the name of). In such a term can it be considered traditional?

 

And what respect is there to tradition is Judo beyond bowing (this is an actual question?, any Judo guys want to field it...we once shared the uni gym with the Judo club because of double booking and I never saw a bow, but I may have missed it.)

 

Also to fully answer the question one must first answer the great point. When does a sport end and a martial art begin? Are some MMA champions more sportsman than artist? Its a controversy and I really dont know the answer (and most guesses would get me in trouble with someone).

 

Also to make a point Karate is labelled a traditional martial art...however the way it is practised today is not very traditional at all. Even Gichin Funakoshi said Karate now is not what he was taught (mostly thanks to his own modifications).

 

Some say that ancient karate may have had elements similar with Muay Thai and wrestling with practicioners pounding heavy straw bags and makiwara and engaging in wrestling matches of the native grappling art of Tegumi. So where does that leave today's Shotokan?

 

Finally, if not using a gi is important then would Sumo work?

[SevenStar]

The original form of Kodokan judo was very close to TJJ (as was karate orginally), but modern ideals of fitness and competition made it into the sport it is today.

 

Original Kodokan Judo was still devoid of most of the strikes and locks that could cause serious injury. The few that were left in the system were only showed to advanced students, as it is done today. The techniques haven't really changed, other than competitors modify them to suit competition. For example, you will almost never get a traditional o soto gari to work in competition - it's too telegraphic and too easy to defend. However, it's important to understand the mechanics of it before you attempt modified competition versions.

 

Whether Judo and MT are traditional. Well Judo is not really that old less than 100 years. Muay Thai however has a rich history.

 

true. But because of it's roots in the budo, I consider it traditional.

 

However how many MT fighters outside of Thailand give the history its due respect and adhere to its traditions (its rare that you see a Wai Kru or that head band thingy I never remember the name of). In such a term can it be considered traditional?

 

yeah, it can. The headband thingy (mongkon) you are referring to is a religious symbol, as is the arm band (praciat) if you are not buddhist, then those items really hold no meaning to you. Those are items blessed by monks that are supposed to bring a fighter good luck. The wai kru - the three bows - are still done, as is the ram muay - the dance - which I think is actually what you were referring to.

 

And what respect is there to tradition is Judo beyond bowing (this is an actual question?, any Judo guys want to field it...we once shared the uni gym with the Judo club because of double booking and I never saw a bow, but I may have missed it.)

 

like any other art, it will depend on the club you attend. in addition to the bow, there is lining up by rank, certain times that you bow, etc. Really, the only tradition of judo is common courtesy.

 

Also to fully answer the question one must first answer the great point. When does a sport end and a martial art begin? Are some MMA champions more sportsman than artist? Its a controversy and I really dont know the answer (and most guesses would get me in trouble with someone).

 

who says it has to end? martial means war like. sport or not, a fighting style is martial. the question is where does art begin, and that is in the eye of the beholder... To me, a well placed, well timed throw is a thing of beauty - definitely art... alot of people say art comes into play when a style incorporates things like philosophy, spirituality, etc. which would mean that sport styles are not martial arts. by my definition, martial art is combat art, which includes sport fighting. IMO, neither ethics code nor philosophical teachings are a requirement for a martial art.

 

Also to make a point Karate is labelled a traditional martial art...however the way it is practised today is not very traditional at all. Even Gichin Funakoshi said Karate now is not what he was taught (mostly thanks to his own modifications).

 

Some say that ancient karate may have had elements similar with Muay Thai and wrestling with practicioners pounding heavy straw bags and makiwara and engaging in wrestling matches of the native grappling art of Tegumi. So where does that leave today's Shotokan?

 

muay thai's training methods aren't unique to muay thai. what has changed is the nature of the arts... back then, people were fighting wars, fighting challenge matches, etc. they did what they had to to be the best. in this day and age, most TMA don't compete, except for in forms and point competitions. they don't NEED to do the things that their ancestors did. Many MT fighters still compete, as do many judoka. In order to be the best, they train accordingly. That said, CMA and JMA do indeed still do iron palm training, makiwara training, etc. Maybe not all schools, but there are schools out there.

 

Finally, if not using a gi is important then would Sumo work?

 

you're comparing apples and oranges here. The two have have different principles - a judoka's aim is to off balance you, then throw you. why? it's easy, it's gentle and it's effective - these are all principles that are in accordance with what Kano founded judo upon. Sumo is more like chinese shuai chiao - they will crash into you to get you off balance, then throw you. yeah, IMO, sumo would definitely work.

[SevenStar]

quick side note of judo's development - kano did not want his art to be like tjj, consequently, no, the original kodokan was not any more similar than it is today. Kano was a pacifist. that's why he based his system on principles such as mutual benefit and also maximum efficiency, and why he removed the strikes and more dangerious locks. another reason is that he was a genious in his time - he knew that the tjj schools could only train via kata. since tjj used spine locks, eye gouges, bone breaks in conjunction with throws, etc. they couldn't practice at full speed for obvious reasons. By eliminating those techniques, kano's groups was able to spar full contact with minimal injury. That was the edge that they had over the tjj guys - they sparred, and therefore gained experience more quickly.

[goshinman]

quick side note of judo's development - kano did not want his art to be like tjj, consequently, no, the original kodokan was not any more similar than it is today. Kano was a pacifist. that's why he based his system on principles such as mutual benefit and also maximum efficiency, and why he removed the strikes and more dangerious locks. another reason is that he was a genious in his time - he knew that the tjj schools could only train via kata. since tjj used spine locks, eye gouges, bone breaks in conjunction with throws, etc. they couldn't practice at full speed for obvious reasons. By eliminating those techniques, kano's groups was able to spar full contact with minimal injury. That was the edge that they had over the tjj guys - they sparred, and therefore gained experience more quickly.

 

Right on point as usual sevenstar. And as for what is traditional and non traditional, the guy's who use that term when discussing TMA are usually using it to say what isn't effective. Which is why in their minds Karate for example is a TMA while Muay thai is not. Not saying they are right, but this is usually what they mean.

[daoshi]

Good points. Judo is very tough and injury is a certainty. At least in BJJ you can concentrate on mat work without getting thrown over and over.

 

Also, Judo is not a part of the broad martial arts community. Many of the dojos are non profit, tournaments are held to break even rather than make money, and people donate their time and money to the betterment of Judo.

 

I don't think Judo will ever be popular. One or two classes will convince most people to give it up.

Well after Karo Parisyans' easy win over Dave Strasser it seems that there has been a rush by folks in the mma community to learn judo or at least there has been a rising curiousity about it.

[daoshi]

Street encounters will almost always involve an opponent wearing clothing. A T shirt and loose hip hop shorts are plenty to get a hold of. Even in class and tournament competition though, some of the popular throws do not require a gi grip.

 

On the street, or naked in a prison shower, O soto gari with the pushing hand on the throat is a perfect technique.

I've never seen a "traditional judo class that didn't make extensive use of the gi.