Kata-What is the point in it?

[returning_wave]

The chinese are notorious for hiding things in kata for fear of that their best student might use it against them. I still refer to karate as china hand becaus that is where it came from.

 

And before that, Greece. As you say, there are 'hidden' techniques in Greece Hand () katas. Actually hidden is probably the wrong word, but the point is you have to study the moves in depth to understand them. The masters of old developed kata as their legacy, or the legacy or their instructor: they contaiend their entire fighting style. They did not want an enemy, havign watched the kata performed, to know how to defeat them, so the true applications were closely guarded secrets. The moves themselves do not change, but the point is the applications are far more complex than meets the eye. Gichin Funokoshi did not spend a decade studying Tekki and only Tekki because it was a religious dance, or because its point was obvious.

[Goju1]

Back to the original topic, though -

 

I would add that if you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer.

[Drunken Monkey]

is this concept so hard to understand?

 

if the chinese didn't want you to know something, they wouldn't show you it in the first place OR they would show you something that was 'wrong'.

 

they wouldn't hide things in a form because if it is in a form, no matter how hidden, people will find it.

 

don't want people to know.

 

don't show it.

 

all of this talk of hidden moves sounds too much like a marketing ploy.

[Sasori_Te]

KotegasiNeo,

 

My "conjecture" (the proper spelling btw), comes from 10 years of teaching and research into the martial arts. Where does your information come from? I'm guessing that you got your information from your instructor. Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with Drunken Monkey on this one.

[Drunken Monkey]

and to say that katas are a set of moves, hidden or otherwise is way too simplistic a way to see them.

 

it's like kids seeing some bits of kata and then proceeding to 'fight' each other with kata, not realising that it isn't like that.

 

i say there are no 'moves', only types of 'movement'.

 

like you say, a block is a strike is a lock is a throw.

 

they are all more or less the same hand+arm movement.

 

if you think of things in such a narrow fashion as moves and techniques suggests, then i say you are limiting yourself.

[DarkAngel_Azrel]

i just wish to say one thing and please correct me if iam wrong but katas are the works of masters over most of there lives .so it is natural that there aplications are diffrent for exmaple a master who spent his life perfecting his kata could well have drawen his insperation form anything relgious or combativ katas are as different as the pople who do them.

[equaninimus]

Especially if he refuses to be "borken."

[jeffrogers]

Agreed with Sasori_Te. There is no hiddin techniques persay in Kata. It may only seem hidden or secret what I mean is if your not exposed to it because your teacher hasn't got you there yet or doesn't know him/her self. What one person may think is a new and invoting and outsanding secret technique another practioner thinks is common knowledge becaues they been doing it for years.

 

For example my first studying of Shaolin Kempo my instructor didn't know much of the bunkai of the kata. Don't get me wrong he was still a good fighter and had quite a bit of knowlege on joint locks and ohter such stuff as well as striking. But until one of Tony Sandovals students came who was excellent martial artist. He helped expose to him what the movements in his forms could be. It opened my instructors eyes to see more possiblities. He then took the knowlidge of diffrent techniques he learned and seen and trained with other people in and can incorporate more bunkai into his forms as well as get a bit of more conepts in his training. I my self switched to that instructor under tony because thats the type of training I prefer. I liked the focus on concepts and working these ideas. Every part of a form had some concept you can put to it. Rooting your weight, picking it back up, body alignemnt, breathing, Each movement in Kata weather big or smalll can be multipe applications nad when you take the movement from the kata to work for bunkai if the movement is big you don't have to apply it big you can make it small, medium or big. Making several applications for one move. Kata is a refrence for concepts and application of technbiuces to practice and perfect.

 

What alot of people were exposed to though is Kata Acting, the tourment type karate with the loud kia's and Kata training to impress the judges that they haven't been exposed to real Karate. So to a point I believe kata is important to a karate system. Is it needed to make a good fighter? No! But if you like doing like the mental part of karate such as the application training. Its great. But I believe concept training and application is at the heart of karate. Because the concepts is what gives the Kata substince with out it Kata is useless its just an egg shell with no egg in it. worth less. Unless you want to look at it at art stand point or something that looks of beauty to you. But that is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

-Jeff