Kata-What is the point in it?

[krunchyfrogg]

Tonight I was working on taikyoko shodan (kihon kata for some) and yet, after twenty plus years in karate, I have come away having learnt even more about this kata and movement / breathing in karate.

 

Kata is essential. On a basic level, you can look on kata as being a way to transport from one place to another, the teaching of karate. The teachings of shotokan are held in the kata and what easy way to be able to gather all the knowledge into a series of "moves" which when broken down, form a million lessons of karate application.

 

If you said to someone, okay I want you to learn these million moves and try to memorise them all by the end of the year! Quite impossible. But ask a person to learn 26 kata and they have all that knowledge in a convenient package. (By learn, I mean to mimic and not to fully "learn" by the true definition of that word.)

 

The trick then is to break down this package and understand the meaning and application of each element. Hence we develop kihon and kumite and variations of the kata itself.

 

Quite a good idea, if you ask me.

 

 

Wow, you sound just like my Senseis.

 

Takyoko Shodan is the second kata my school learns (Empi Kata is first), but we're all taught that TS is the most important, forming the base of almost everything we do.

[Neil]

Look one little sentance I made has escalated into something I really wasn't interested in discussing. I only wanted to point out that kata is not a bunch of techniques or 'shadow boxing', kata does not represent a fight by any means of the imagination. They are however SYMBALS and meant to be worked out to what a particular movement is teaching you to do, and then the movement is adapted in knocking hands and brought alives and in the end it looks nothing like it did in the kata. Then I wanted to point out that some parts of the kata such as in Goju Ryu where after bowing and naming the kata the hands come up to the head and push through the body to the groin to symbalise that you are taking in the knowledge of the teacher and putting it through. My point was here that a lot of teachers teach that the reason you have your hands in front of your groin at the start of the kata is to block a kick to the groin, which is pathetics, it is has absolutely no correlation with fighting what so ever, and if anyone does think that it shows the incapability of that man as a fighter.

 

Religeon was there before kata was as far as I know, Zen Buddism was a big part of Okinawa which I know from a book entitled 'Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters' by Shoshin Nagamine. So Zen Buddism was a part of Okinawa and I geus this had no influence in the kata. The start of the kata is a religeous ceromonial movement with no fighting application what so ever. It is no denying it is ceromonial-that is for sure, so why is it not religeous? Okinawa had deep Zen Buddism in it and one thing I do know is that buddist hands are in the kata Sanhcin and other katas which I repeatedly do every morning at 4am.

 

My interest does not lie in the historical details of the kata, but you have to know the difference between what is ceromomial and religeous to which is meant to be worked out and can be used in a combative conrontation, that is where all you who have been led by a bad sense of smell like a pig and made to do unnatural movements of the body and then lied to saying that there is no rleigeous base in Martial Arts, when blatentley there is, not only from movements that replicate movements that can be seen in statues all over asia since nobody here has boviously been to preferring to surf the safety of the web and listen to their teachers every word even though he has no idea or is lying to his students in order to make a living. I'm sorry but you need to open your eyes.

 

I may be wrong about the religon thing a bit, but you must undersytand what kata is for and what it is not for that somew parts of the kata are purely ceremonial and others are meant to be worked out as fighting application on the street to drop the guy in 3 seconds flat yet sadly more of you if not all are probobly going around being lied to and now your beleif is so strong you are not even listening to what I am saying.

 

http://www.zhongding.fsnet.co.uk/Warrior%20Tim%20Nicklin.pdf

[returning_wave]

They are however SYMBALS and meant to be worked out to what a particular movement is teaching you to do, and then the movement is adapted in knocking hands and brought alives and in the end it looks nothing like it did in the kata.

 

I agree that the prinicples are the most important thing in the kata, but the moves themselves are combat applications, as they stand. I have found it quite astonishing the thigns you can actually do with a move straight out of a kata. For example, the move from Kanku-dai i mentioend earlier, although almost always, as many of you have said, taught as a spiratual move or a focusign symbol, can be used as a grab defense as it stands, movign teh hands up and round, guiding the arms over and down, then grabbign one of the arms and perforimgn the knife-hand strike to the head as in the kata.

My point was here that a lot of teachers teach that the reason you have your hands in front of your groin at the start of the kata is to block a kick to the groin, which is pathetics, it is has absolutely no correlation with fighting what so ever, and if anyone does think that it shows the incapability of that man as a fighter.

 

You may wish to consider other applications for the move. This was my exact sentiments until about 6 months ago, when I really began to reasearch applicatiosn away from the very kumite-esque unrealistic applications which I was taught in the dojo. I dont obviously know the kata you are referrign to but there is a very similar move at the start of shotokan's Tekki kata which is atributed similar 'groin-block' significance, which in fact is a very effective grab release.

 

As i can sense a flame war just below the surface in this thread I should say it is not remotly my intention to insult you, your opinions or your instructor. I have been taught for some years under a very 'my way or the highway' instructor and I know what its like to feel lectured. Just carryign on a debate.

[Goju1]

How 'bout this? - kata is entirely mental/spiritual

[I-Self]

No doubt- everything is mental or "in your head". The truth is that (your) perception is (your) reality, but perception is an illusion- a trick your mind plays on your body. "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" The consensus agreement amongst neuroscientists is that the answer is "no".

 

That aside, you feel that what you experience when you are asleep and awake is real, so it is as far as you know. Therefore, living under that assumption the mental landscape your brain maps out of its surroundings seems to entail a concrete existence. In that sense kata is very physical and real, and understanding the messages entailed in them is crucial to understanding effective karate philosophy and application.

 

It should be noted that the Orthodox styles teach that no movement is wasted. Even the preparation hand movements point to defensive and offensive techniques.

 

Religion does affect kata. All kata are said to be of Chinese influence via the Shaolin Temple where Ch'an or Zen Buddhism was the focus of the monks. For example Supraempi, or "108". There are 108 steps leading up to every Ch'an Buddhist temple. That is the significance of this number. Also, Gojushiho which means "54"- you are now halfway done with your journey to enlightenment- it is much more than a physical one- in fact the mind and body are the same. So yes, there is some religious symbolism, but this is also a mask to hide very effective fighting techniques. Again, I reiterate, no movement is wasted. Symbolism rules our reality.

 

Reality is a malleable illusion. Understand and respect it from your angle, and adjust to the magic trick accordingly. Make it work with you, not for you. If you don't believe in something why do it? You'll never get anywhere doing that.

 

Like my Sensei always says- "Kata, kata, kata!!!"

[Drunken Monkey]

what i'm picking at is that you seem to be saying 'i am right, you are wrong'.

 

i have only been offering things reasons why i think there is no outright religious movements in forms.

 

i think they are more cultural than anything.

 

i'll go back to chinese forms as a reference.

 

the chinese culture is deeply set with buddhist, taoist, ancestoral worship, worship of small gods etc etc.

 

that is chinese culture and not all of it is even taken to be religious as it is also part of the culture's mytholgy and sometimes even the history.

 

for the new year, the famous happy new year saying is often accompanied by the 'businessmans' hands which undoubtedly has origins in buddhist/temple worship but the movement itself has been far removed from the actual religious connotations.

 

my point is that even if the movement has origins in religion, it does not mean it is religious.

 

and i'm still not convinced that 'symbol' is the best word to use.

 

i've always seen forms as a series of types of movement (movement not meaning technique).

 

for example, when in a form you do an arm extension, it represents all types of hand movement, be it a fist, a palm or a push.

 

the same goes for different starting points of movements.

 

if in a form you begin a move from the waist or chest, or hand extended, it shows you that you can do things from that position.

 

same for footwork.

 

you then deconstruct each type of movement and re-construct it into techniques that you can use.

 

we are talking more or less about the same thing.

 

we, you and i a least, are only arguing over the choice of words we are using.

[kotegashiNeo]

So we don't have to do this again I want to make clear that movements in kata have clear combative purpose, not a purpose that you create. Let me ask you a question if you wanted to hide a deadly killing technique without using paper how would you do it? Another question if you knew other people where going to see your kata and try to disect it piece by piece, would you hide it from them? Finally if you knew that your kata was going to be taught to an unworthy student that would use it to harm people would you hide the true meaning of it from him? Easy questions to answer right. Everyone can learn kata not everyone can understand it. In goju kata where are you striking and why? If you do the same strike in the same area during geki sai dai ichi are you striking the same spot? The chinese have a fantastic holistic healing system don't ya think if they can heal without drugs ....................

 

Okay maybe this wasn't so clear but self realization is so much more powerful

[Drunken Monkey]

why would you want to hide technique in a kata?

 

if you truely want to hide something quite simply, don't show anyone.

 

it's not hard.

 

the chinese guys did this a lot.

 

they used to teach their sons the proper forms and teach outsiders modified versions with missing pieces.

 

they wouldn't bother with teaching things with 'secrets' in it.

 

when the old masters used to train, they did so out of the gaze of everyone.

 

that is how they hid things.

 

i'll go back to wing chun for a bit because then everyone can see what i'm trying to say.

 

the first form, i'll assume that you are familiar with.

 

for those that are not, it is simply a series of hand motions that we train whilst standing stationary.

 

the motions are just that.

 

to use the 'moves' we take the hand motion and add stepping, stance, position etc etc etc.

 

nothing is hidden.

 

nothing is secret.

 

nothing is symbolic.

 

everything has an application (or used to have an application....), either for training and/or for fighting.

[Sasori_Te]

There are no hidden techniques in kata. There are only different levels of interpretation and understanding. The more you study and train the more meanings you can derive from kata.

[kotegashiNeo]

The chinese are notorious for hiding things in kata for fear of that their best student might use it against them. I still refer to karate as china hand becaus that is where it came from. Now this may be a sterch in logic but maybe in goju (I can't speak for other styles) they hid something pretty remakable. How can you say there are now secrets in kata sasori_te when you don't know of that which I speak, sounds like simple connjecture of someone who thinks they know but do not. I assure you there is secrets in goju kata.