Neil Posted January 27, 2004 Author Posted January 27, 2004 The bow is not a religeous thing, true, but there is buddist hands in the kata sanchin, saifa, gekisai kata 2 and other katas I have seen. So there is no denying that there is religeous basis in Martial Arts. And talking about misinformed if you actually went to asia like my teacher you would see the buddist statues and see the link between religeon and kata. Think about where the katas first came from. They came from China. Each karate system had certain animal forms in it and with that religeous aspects. Shorite is made up of white crane and snake, nahate is made up of tiger and white crane with religeon being present in katas. If you think kata is just about fighting then you are the one who is "mistaught". The start of the katas in Goju with the hands being pushed through the body has absolutely no fighting application what so ever, although many modern day Okinawan and Japanese and western teachers, or should I say instructors since that is what they do 'instruct', teach these as fighting applications and who have absolutely no fighting ability what so ever. Religeon is present in kat, I'm sorry but it simply is, it always has. Neil
tommarker Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Neil, What isn't in some way molded or influenced by religion? I'm no longer posting here. Adios.
Drunken Monkey Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 lets got through this again. karate has origins in shaolin. that's a given. but there are no religious movements in shaolin forms (except the names of some movements but even then they are just poetic names, nothing more) so why would karate have religious intent? the origins of shaolin kung fu has the forms being for health, not religious practice. and what has animals got to do with religion? the fut sau position is named because it resembles the hand position taken by monks. there is no religion in wing chun but we have the same hand position. shaolin forms ARE NOT a religious dance so why are things derived from them religious dance? if anything, considering the fact that the japanese sought to refine the chinese forms, i would've thought that any excess would've been removed. what does the presence of buddhist statues prove? there's a few in london if you know where to look. to paraphrase you. Religon is not present in kata, I'm sorry but it simply isn't, it never has been. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."
returning_wave Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 to paraphrase you. Religon is not present in kata, I'm sorry but it simply isn't, it never has been. agreed. I have a friend who practises Shaolin and although the names make it appear religious his instructor insists they are 'designed for fighting not worship' (his words).If you think kata is just about fighting then you are the one who is "mistaught".. Im sorry but I dont agree. Our instructor is forever telling us moves are 'just ceremonial' or 'a ready stance' or some similar get out clause, but, having studied applications for these (such as the so called 'spiratual' move at the start of Kanku-dai) I have applied the moves to good effect both in the dojo and on the very odd occasion outside. 3rd Kyu - Variant ShotokanTaijutsu"We staunt traditionalists know that technique is nowhere near as important as having your pleats straight when you die."
ESA-Shotokan Posted January 28, 2004 Posted January 28, 2004 I remember a lesson on Kanku Dai by a Wado Ryu sensei who explained that the first movement of raising the joined hands upwards to eye level and then breaking them apart symbolised how we (humans) are but part of the world and then the universe. We are made of the same stuff and so can use that energy within the kata and our lives... A bit deep but I find religion and dancing somewhat a taming of the shrew, here. I just don't see kata that way. Kata is so much more than that.
joerfe Posted January 28, 2004 Posted January 28, 2004 To the original post: I read it, and read it again... Then I laughed. I hope your, lets call it, lack of knowledge is due to the fact that you are teaching yourself from books and your own fantasy. If not, I would suggest you find another dojo. For the post describing the initial move in Kanku-Dai: I've always learned that it symbolises readiness and the fact that this is indeed emty handed. But anyway, interesting thread. It has really stirred the forum. May the force be with you... Always
Neil Posted January 28, 2004 Author Posted January 28, 2004 I might have misuntepreted what my teacher said that I will admit but my teacher certainly is not a fraud such as the JKA. He has been doing Martial Arts since he was six years old and he is now 40. Every year he has gone to asia and physically trained out there, not read how to do books such as a lot of your senseis do. But I do know that there is buddist hands in sanchin since I have perform sanchin every day, history is not my thing, I'm 16 years old, I know I should stick to what I do know, but I thought I might aswell have a go. The only history I know is what my teacher knows, I have not done any of my own research, the only research I do and the subject which I can defend and understand is the human body and how it moves and how we can teach ouselves how to fight. That is what I study and know, so forgive me if I angered anyone, but if it is wrong hat I have said, it was due to ME misintepreting what he said. He is in no way wrong. So what I got wrong was the religeous dance, yes, but the fact that kata is all about symbals definately is right since I know that myself, but it still has some religeon mixed in with some katas, theres no denying the buddist hands!
Drunken Monkey Posted January 28, 2004 Posted January 28, 2004 i'll say it again. there are 'buddhist hands' (well, one anyway..) in wing chun but wing chun has nothing to do with religion. it IS possible for the shapes to be just that, shapes... not all cars have need for a spoiler but a lot have them anyway. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."
gheinisch Posted January 28, 2004 Posted January 28, 2004 Ok everyone, let's try to voice our opinions without being critical of teaching styles, organizations or personnel attacks. Everyone is allowed an opinion as everyone is allowed to disagree. Keep it civil. "If your hand goes forth withhold your temper""If your temper goes forth withold your hand"-Gichin Funakoshi
Sasori_Te Posted January 28, 2004 Posted January 28, 2004 Just a quick piece of advice. I'm not knocking your instructor, he may be a great instructor and a great person. It has been my experience that NO ONE is worthy of blind devotion. Note I did not say devotion alone. You may be setting yourself up for a hard fall if you continue to follow without thought or question. It happened to me with my first instructor. Be very careful and think for yourself. It never hurt anyone to do their own research. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw.
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